Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a hit

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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby LITO » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:50 pm

avij wrote:
LITO wrote:Sorry you did not understand me , my request is not for a complex system which defines whether a hit is interesting or not , no I just want something simple that works the same in every country.

Yes, I understood that you'd like to have a simple system. If you have such a simple system in mind, please describe it with sufficient detail so that any potential flaws in the system could be taken into account. Once all those potential flaws have been taken into account, I'm afraid the "simple system" will have grown into a somewhat complex system.

LITO wrote:If a user gets 100 hits from a bundle in a bank , I shall not decide if this is interesting or not , it has to be the hit-maker's decision to consider them uninteresting

That's a novel approach. By definition, all hits have at least two users who have entered the note, let's call them user A and user B. What happens if user A thinks the hits are uninteresting, but user B insists that they're all interesting? In that situation someone else will need to make that decision. So I think we're back to square one with this. Try again.

LITO wrote:this is not my business I am not competing against him or any other , I just want to know where my notes come from and go to, that is why I came here on EBT.

Oh. In that case I'm happy to inform you that even if your hits are moderated, the path your notes have taken can still be seen on EBT. Moderating hits only removes the hits from the interesting hits listing.


-No I do not have any other system in mind , the system we are now using is fair enough ; only arbitrary hit moderation can be unfair but the system is not to blame , this is a human factor which could be removed.

-Yes If users A & B do not agree then they may need a referee and in that case I am sure a modarator will be happy to arbitrate , but there is no need to decide for them before they ask for arbitration.

-Yes I still can see the path of my notes but when you moderate them you are hiding them just as if there is shame on those hits , you don't have to like my hits but you have to accept them since they are fortuitous.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby Jes » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:41 pm

LITO wrote:-Yes I still can see the path of my notes but when you moderate them you are hiding them just as if there is shame on those hits , you don't have to like my hits but you have to accept them since they are fortuitous.

Well, I would like to point out something that worries me, related to that aspect (but which is certainly off-topci here, hence I will not give it too much importance now).

The thing is: when a moderated hit (normal hit between users A & B) becomes a triple hit, it still remains moderated. In my opinion, the tripe hit would be interesting in most cases if the note is "hitted" normally.

Btw: thanx for your explanation and opinion jonman. It is very interesting. And: Sure! it would be nice to make a ranking with the most interesting hits! Not only for the fact that a new ranking always gives you an extra entretainment feature at EBT (like the other rankings in EBT) but also because it would be useful to improve the formula used to "measure" the interestingness of a hit. :D

PS: I hadn't say it before, but Happy new year!! to everyone who celebrates it.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby avij » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:13 pm

Jes wrote:The thing is: when a moderated hit (normal hit between users A & B) becomes a triple hit, it still remains moderated. In my opinion, the tripe hit would be interesting in most cases if the note is "hitted" normally.

This is incorrect. If a moderated normal hit becomes a triple, it will automatically become unmoderated.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby Jes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:31 am

avij wrote:
Jes wrote:The thing is: when a moderated hit (normal hit between users A & B) becomes a triple hit, it still remains moderated. In my opinion, the tripe hit would be interesting in most cases if the note is "hitted" normally.

This is incorrect. If a moderated normal hit becomes a triple, it will automatically become unmoderated.

:oops: :oops: :oops: Ok. Thanks for clarify. I only have normal hits myself and I thought I read that somewhere. :oops: :oops: maybe it was the case in the past and it is no longer that way.

Anyway: thankyou! and sorry.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby jonman » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:37 pm

avij wrote:Perhaps I should point out that my current plan is to switch to the hit scoring system some time this summer. The changes needed for the new Europa banknotes take priority, but after those are done, we'll concentrate on getting the hit scoring system implemented. There would still be moderators, but their role would be reduced to handling only some specific cases of abuse. They would no longer be deciding whether a hit is interesting or not.

There will be a process to submit previously moderated uninteresting hits for scoring and unmoderation, so at that point, it becomes irrelevant whether these LITO-beaweb hits were previously moderated or not.

If you have comments/thoughts/concerns about the new hit scoring system, please write them to the topic mentioned above. Let's keep this topic for the current system's moderation/unmoderation requests.

this sounds good. i really hope that the upcoming changes will be implemented in a way that the ones directing this change will do so after thoroughly taking into account all the users’ ideas and thoughts (i’m thinking about a poll announced per e-mail, or however). probably it will be best to speak about this in rouen (where i unfortunately won’t be able to be), but i hope that you guys will have great ideas how to advance ebt :D
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby LArdennais » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:41 pm

Hi all :)

If a scoring system for the "interestingness" of a hit will be operationnal (this year, why not ? :) ) there will be influence in the Hit ratio's - for a User, for a City, for a Region, for a Country...

I think (but it's just my opinion ;) ) that this present discussion will be mixed with this thread :

http://forum.eurobilltracker.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=55238

But, I repeat...it's just my opinion ;)
Last edited by LArdennais on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby avij » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:30 pm

Yes, we can consider the implications of using a different mechanism for calculating the hit ratio for this "hit interestingness" project. I don't know yet for certain if it'd make sense or not, we'll get to think more about this at a slightly later stage.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby Ewri » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:14 pm

I don't want to go into the mathematics of the hits, but I suggest that the score would take into consideration all the variables in the notes ie denomination, country, city, short code/serial/denomination occurrence on ebt, and hit partners.

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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby jonman » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:13 pm

how about not making a formula at all, but let the users evaluate the hits? like today there could be moderated and not moderated hits, and of the not moderated hits everybody has the possibility to give it a rating between 1 and 5 and, tadaa, we have a measure of the interestingness of a hit that includes everybody’s concepts of what makes a hit interesting without having to think of a huge formula :D
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby dserrano5 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:18 pm

jonman wrote:how about not making a formula at all, but let the users evaluate the hits?


I guess only a handful of users would spend their time moderating other people's hits. I for one would not do it. Mind you, I actually like your proposal but I think it's unrealistic.

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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby avij » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:36 pm

jonman wrote:how about not making a formula at all, but let the users evaluate the hits? like today there could be moderated and not moderated hits, and of the not moderated hits everybody has the possibility to give it a rating between 1 and 5 and, tadaa, we have a measure of the interestingness of a hit that includes everybody’s concepts of what makes a hit interesting without having to think of a huge formula :D

Because I know for certain that there would be people who would do their best to lower the scores of all hits occurring in a non-friendly country and increase the scores of all the hits occurring in the user's favourite country. Or the same at the user level, if some user has particular fans/foes. I don't think that'd be productive.

Besides, that approach doesn't scale. Including the moderated hits, we get an average of 266 hits per day (for 2013 so far). Assigning scores to all of them individually would be quite a lot of work, even if done by multiple users. It would also introduce a delay in getting the interesting hits shown properly on EBT as interesting, whereas with an algorithm the results would be shown immediately.

That said, there could be some amount of user control for scoring the hits, but I'd like to limit that control to only to the users who are involved in that particular hit. For example, most meeting hits wouldn't be caught by the algorithm, and it might be useful for the affected users to declare the hit as uninteresting by themselves without needing to bother a moderator to moderate that hit. Another aspect is that our algorithm won't be able to figure out whether the comment in the note is particularly interesting or not. For example, if someone gets a hit while getting married (n.b., that could have been a hit with me as that small park is next to our house), any hits occurring in such a (usually) once in a lifetime event might be considered interesting even if the kilometres or days aren't particularly noteworthy. However, there will need to be a limit for that control, people shouldn't be able to say "ALL my hits are more interesting than the hits by others" because that'd be somewhat selfish. And I know there are lots of selfish people out there, unfortunately.

This kind of user-level control could also be used to fine-tune the scores obtained by the algorithm. While this hit of mine is definitely 'nice', it's not really THAT interesting as I brought the note to Finland with me. If that note was found from some other country than Finland, it would have been more interesting to me. We might consider allowing the hit partners of such hits to increase or decrease the score by some amount. It wouldn't need to be a yes/no decision, but, say, any number between -X% to +X%.
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby an-148 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:00 pm

on the french forum, LITO asked : what is your personnal opinion about interrestingness of a hit ?

I replied (and saw here above that jonman seems to have a quite similar idea) that the hitter themselve are fully aware - and happy or not - about the fact that such or such hit is interresting or not - there is even a topic in the forum where someone can point them out "a very nice hit".

Back to basics: what is the purpose of the website: to track the bills and follow their journey: this would mean that ALL HONEST HITS have to appear in the hit list, including those presently moderated by the system (moderation should remain manually and concern "proved friendly" hits and fake hits - the last one as a pre-option of deletion): there will never be any discussion about the interrestingness anymore, we would maybe have more power users and, very important: thr hit ration would better reflect the numbers of bills that really crossed the way of an ebter.

The hit list would simply be a list with no scaling and it's better so because nobody (even the hitter themselve) is able to know what happened to the bill in the meantime and you never find an algorythm to take in account all subjective parameters

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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby avij » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:29 pm

This will need a little bit longer answer, which I'm unable to provide right now as my flight leaves in a few hours and I need to make some preparations before that.

In addition to this topic, I'll be available for a face-to-face chat about these ideas during the EBTM.

[edit: I hope my long message elsewhere describes in enough detail why a score-based system is needed]
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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby an-148 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:53 pm

:)

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Re: Brainstorm for a metric for the "interestingness" of a h

Postby tralla » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:55 pm

Hello all,

reading through this thread I cannot help wondering if you're not forgetting that most of us are *not* power users, bundle trackers and dot hunters - we're entering the notes we catch during our daily doings, we pester our friends and colleagues, we're doing it for the fun of it, and we go *WOW* when we score a hit. *Any* hit.

You're wondering why there is a decline in user numbers? You'll not help it with setting up a scoring system that is tailored for some 100 or so top users, I'm afraid. How will you explain to a new user that she'll not need to bother to register in Helmbrechts because all her hits will be moderated? Why should a local hit in Cologne count more or less than in Berlin? Do you want to turn all those with 2000 registered notes away because they're living in the wrong city?

The formula that every new or simple user will understand is: A hit is a hit.

IMHO, this is also true for 100 identical bundle hits (the notes travelled, didn't they) or "friendly" hits (how do you define that anyway)? There may be fakers out there and people who exchange notes to fake hits but where's the fun (s. a.) in that?

And all you power users out there can still have your 100 bundle hits moderated if that clogs your statistics.

Sound simplistic? It most certainly is! :wink:
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