TEXT E-CARD

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Juristi M
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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Juristi M » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:40 pm

Dakkus wrote:I'd say "euroalue" instead of "eurovyöhyke". Vyöhyke sounds like a public transportation ticket zone, such as Berlin AB, or something like that. "Alue" means area instead of zone.
"Euroalue" is an established word for the intended use. Google seems to agree with me.
The conjugated form of "vyöhyke" should anyway be "vyöhykkeelle", not "-seen", because Slovakia doesn't go somehow inside the "zone" (underground? :D), but stays over the ground :)

Therefore, a bit better form of the line in Finnish:
"Onnellista uuttavuotta 2009 ! EuroBillTracker toivottaa Slovakian tervetulleeksi euroalueelle ! Seuraa setelien kiertoa Slovakiassa !"
Fixes:
1) uutta vuotta -> uuttavuotta (uusi vuosi = a year that is new, uusivuosi = the new year's night. "Uutta vuotta" wouldn't be incorrect, but "Uutta vuotta 2009" is.)
2) eurovyöhykkeeseen -> euroalueelle (zone changed to area, illative form changed to allative form.)
3) Revamped the whole last sentence. The original said: "Follow the circulation of the notes of Slovakia", my version says: "Follow the notes' circulation in Slovakia". I find the original clumsy. I find my own version quite clumsy, as well, but at least less clumsy than the original. I might also mention, that I personally find "setelien" an erroneous plural genetive form and would definitely say "seteleiden" instead. However, googling seems to show "setelien" to be used in all official sites (and almost /only/ there O.o) and "seteleiden" on the sites with people just babbling (and almost /only/ there O.o), so "setelien" is probably better anyway. Probably a dialect thing. I come from the east and the written Finnish from the west.


I'm not sure if there is a need to open a detailed debate about perfecting the Finnish translation but I would like to make a couple of observations to the linguistic analysis by Dakkus.

1) I don't quite understand why Dakkus thinks that "uutta vuotta 2009" is incorrect. The currently prevailing way of writing New Year's greetings is to write it using two separate words "uutta vuotta". You can see this by making a simple Google search and checking the results. It may well be that the original way was to write "uuttavuotta" but if the majority already writes it differently then it is not a mistake anymore but just natural development of a language.

2) Dakkus is correct that "euroalue" is the word systematically used by ECB. But the English word (also used by ECB) for "euroalue" is "Euro area", not Eurozone. If the original text speaks about Eurozone then the correct translation is "Eurovyöhyke". So Dakkus is indirectly suggesting a modification to all language versions: "area" isntead of "zone". However, if we keep the notion of zone in the Finnish text as well as in other language texts then I suggest returning to the form "eurovyöhykkeeseen". Saying "eurovyöhykkeeseen" would mean that Slovakia becomes part of a zone while using "eurovyöhykkeelle" would imply that Slovakia is entering (physically moving into) the zone. But this is a matter of semantics. No matter which form you use the message will get through.

3) Here again, Dakkus is in fact suggesting a modification to all language versions. Instead of saying "Slovakian notes / notes of Slovakia" he is suggesting to say "notes in Slovakia" (and Dakkus is in fact right; Initially there will not be real Slovakian Euro notes but lots of imported Euro notes from other Euro countries). If you, however, choose to retain the English text "Slovakian notes" then the Finnish translation is "slovakialaisten setelien" or "slovakialaisten seteleiden". Both forms are correct but "setelien" is gradually gaining ground.

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Phaseolus » Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:59 pm

I love Finnish !

I love Finnish people !

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Mr Euro » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:42 pm

Don't want to complecate things, but if you are using "Slowakije" Flemish people will see this as not correct. Since you are using a Catalan version, you also could use a Flemish version? Just replace "Slowakije" by "Slovakije"

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Dakkus » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:37 am

Juristi M wrote:
1) I don't quite understand why Dakkus thinks that "uutta vuotta 2009" is incorrect. The currently prevailing way of writing New Year's greetings is to write it using two separate words "uutta vuotta". You can see this by making a simple Google search and checking the results. It may well be that the original way was to write "uuttavuotta" but if the majority already writes it differently then it is not a mistake anymore but just natural development of a language.


Yes, "uutta vuotta" is indeed more commonly used. But. Digging into the subject, I found several forums in which language-freakos were conversating on the subject and they all seemed to end up recommending the form written together in this kind of use. I think you can note the slight difference in meaning yourself. I would point out, that "uuttavuotta" definitely is at least not incorrect, and will not be considered incorrect almost by anybody. "uutta vuotta", then again does seem incorrect to some people, including me, who has never bothered investigating on the subject before.
I think the strongest argument I can give are the conjugatet forms when talking about the new year's night not the whole year starting from that night. I don't think you would ever write "uuden vuoden juhlan kunniaksi", but instead "uudenvuodenjuhlan kunniaksi". I would also pronounce those two differently, although I would make no difference to the pronounciation of what we are actually talking about ;)

Juristi M wrote:2) Dakkus is correct that "euroalue" is the word systematically used by ECB. But the English word (also used by ECB) for "euroalue" is "Euro area", not Eurozone. If the original text speaks about Eurozone then the correct translation is "Eurovyöhyke". So Dakkus is indirectly suggesting a modification to all language versions: "area" isntead of "zone". However, if we keep the notion of zone in the Finnish text as well as in other language texts then I suggest returning to the form "eurovyöhykkeeseen". Saying "eurovyöhykkeeseen" would mean that Slovakia becomes part of a zone while using "eurovyöhykkeelle" would imply that Slovakia is entering (physically moving into) the zone. But this is a matter of semantics. No matter which form you use the message will get through.


You must keep in mind, that a notably large part of the Finnish vocabulary doesn't completely overlap with their English counterparts. Even though most uses of word "zone" can and must be translated as "vyöhyke", that does not apply to all of the uses of word "zone". I am very positive, that in this case "vyöhyke" is not a good translation. I believe you can agree saying "eurovyöhyke" instead of "euroalue" sounds very kapulakielinen. (kapulakieli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobbledygook - albeit the words kapulakieli and gobbledygook don't completely share the meaning ;))

Juristi M wrote:3) Here again, Dakkus is in fact suggesting a modification to all language versions. Instead of saying "Slovakian notes / notes of Slovakia" he is suggesting to say "notes in Slovakia" (and Dakkus is in fact right; Initially there will not be real Slovakian Euro notes but lots of imported Euro notes from other Euro countries). If you, however, choose to retain the English text "Slovakian notes" then the Finnish translation is "slovakialaisten setelien" or "slovakialaisten seteleiden". Both forms are correct but "setelien" is gradually gaining ground.


This can indeed be considered slightly odd in all languages. The oddness is, however, very slight and at least in English people would indeed say it just that way. But in Finnish language the error gets exaggerated. The direct translation sounds more incorrect than the original. And not just a bit more. The difference is actually quite large.

All in all, this boils down to the translations having to preserve the meaning, not the form. Even though I'm actually saying a very different thing compared to the original, I believe I am conveying its message a lot clearer than a direct translation would.

Oh I love the Finnish language as well :)
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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Juristi M » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:36 am

Dakkus wrote:
Juristi M wrote:
1) I don't quite understand why Dakkus thinks that "uutta vuotta 2009" is incorrect. The currently prevailing way of writing New Year's greetings is to write it using two separate words "uutta vuotta". You can see this by making a simple Google search and checking the results. It may well be that the original way was to write "uuttavuotta" but if the majority already writes it differently then it is not a mistake anymore but just natural development of a language.


Yes, "uutta vuotta" is indeed more commonly used. But. Digging into the subject, I found several forums in which language-freakos were conversating on the subject and they all seemed to end up recommending the form written together in this kind of use. I think you can note the slight difference in meaning yourself. I would point out, that "uuttavuotta" definitely is at least not incorrect, and will not be considered incorrect almost by anybody. "uutta vuotta", then again does seem incorrect to some people, including me, who has never bothered investigating on the subject before.
I think the strongest argument I can give are the conjugatet forms when talking about the new year's night not the whole year starting from that night. I don't think you would ever write "uuden vuoden juhlan kunniaksi", but instead "uudenvuodenjuhlan kunniaksi". I would also pronounce those two differently, although I would make no difference to the pronounciation of what we are actually talking about ;


If the wishes of happiness only refer to one particular day (1st of January 2009) then also I would use one single word "uuttavuotta". But I have always thought that the wishes of happiness in that saying are extended to the whole coming year and there I would definitely (together with the majority) use two words "uutta vuotta". So here we have two different schools of thought about the true meaning of "Happy New Year" :)

Dakkus wrote:
Juristi M wrote:2) Dakkus is correct that "euroalue" is the word systematically used by ECB. But the English word (also used by ECB) for "euroalue" is "Euro area", not Eurozone. If the original text speaks about Eurozone then the correct translation is "Eurovyöhyke". So Dakkus is indirectly suggesting a modification to all language versions: "area" isntead of "zone". However, if we keep the notion of zone in the Finnish text as well as in other language texts then I suggest returning to the form "eurovyöhykkeeseen". Saying "eurovyöhykkeeseen" would mean that Slovakia becomes part of a zone while using "eurovyöhykkeelle" would imply that Slovakia is entering (physically moving into) the zone. But this is a matter of semantics. No matter which form you use the message will get through.


You must keep in mind, that a notably large part of the Finnish vocabulary doesn't completely overlap with their English counterparts. Even though most uses of word "zone" can and must be translated as "vyöhyke", that does not apply to all of the uses of word "zone". I am very positive, that in this case "vyöhyke" is not a good translation. I believe you can agree saying "eurovyöhyke" instead of "euroalue" sounds very kapulakielinen. (kapulakieli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobbledygook - albeit the words kapulakieli and gobbledygook don't completely share the meaning ;))


Here we probably just agree to disagree. I find it completely ok to use word "vyöhyke" as a proper translation of word "zone". Perhaps it is just a matter of taste / personal perception.

Dakkus wrote:
Juristi M wrote:3) Here again, Dakkus is in fact suggesting a modification to all language versions. Instead of saying "Slovakian notes / notes of Slovakia" he is suggesting to say "notes in Slovakia" (and Dakkus is in fact right; Initially there will not be real Slovakian Euro notes but lots of imported Euro notes from other Euro countries). If you, however, choose to retain the English text "Slovakian notes" then the Finnish translation is "slovakialaisten setelien" or "slovakialaisten seteleiden". Both forms are correct but "setelien" is gradually gaining ground.


This can indeed be considered slightly odd in all languages. The oddness is, however, very slight and at least in English people would indeed say it just that way. But in Finnish language the error gets exaggerated. The direct translation sounds more incorrect than the original. And not just a bit more. The difference is actually quite large.


I was trying to provide a faithful translation. I'm not sufficiently qualified to tell if the exaggeration/distortion of the meaning is bigger in Finnish than in English. In any case, you are trying to improve both the original text and together with it the translation.

Dakkus wrote:All in all, this boils down to the translations having to preserve the meaning, not the form. Even though I'm actually saying a very different thing compared to the original, I believe I am conveying its message a lot clearer than a direct translation would.


It is all about finding a proper balance between keeping the translation as close to the original as possible and still conveying the message accurately in a different language. Luckily in this case the message is likely to get through whichever translation you choose.

Dakkus wrote:Oh I love the Finnish language as well :)


Yes indeed. Being passionate about our language is the best way to guarantee it's future. :D

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Cinnamon » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:02 pm

Juristi M wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
Juristi M wrote:
1) I don't quite understand why Dakkus thinks that "uutta vuotta 2009" is incorrect. The currently prevailing way of writing New Year's greetings is to write it using two separate words "uutta vuotta". You can see this by making a simple Google search and checking the results. It may well be that the original way was to write "uuttavuotta" but if the majority already writes it differently then it is not a mistake anymore but just natural development of a language.


Yes, "uutta vuotta" is indeed more commonly used. But. Digging into the subject, I found several forums in which language-freakos were conversating on the subject and they all seemed to end up recommending the form written together in this kind of use. I think you can note the slight difference in meaning yourself. I would point out, that "uuttavuotta" definitely is at least not incorrect, and will not be considered incorrect almost by anybody. "uutta vuotta", then again does seem incorrect to some people, including me, who has never bothered investigating on the subject before.
I think the strongest argument I can give are the conjugatet forms when talking about the new year's night not the whole year starting from that night. I don't think you would ever write "uuden vuoden juhlan kunniaksi", but instead "uudenvuodenjuhlan kunniaksi". I would also pronounce those two differently, although I would make no difference to the pronounciation of what we are actually talking about ;


If the wishes of happiness only refer to one particular day (1st of January 2009) then also I would use one single word "uuttavuotta". But I have always thought that the wishes of happiness in that saying are extended to the whole coming year and there I would definitely (together with the majority) use two words "uutta vuotta". So here we have two different schools of thought about the true meaning of "Happy New Year" :)

I agree with this. Because the wishes are for the whole year, I think it should be two words. Uuttavuotta is celebrated 30.12.-3.1. (Finnish style you know... :lol: :wink: )

edit. kotimaisten kielten tutkimuskeskus http://www.kotus.fi/index.phtml?i=453&s=2607#faq_453:
Vuoden ensimmäisen päivän juhla on vakiintunut käsite, ja sen nimitys on yhdyssana: uusivuosi. Vakiintuneita ovat myös aattopäivän ja muiden vuodenvaihteen hetkien nimitykset, jotka sisältävät sanan uusivuosi, ja niinpä niidenkin nimitykset kirjoitetaan yhteen: uusivuosi, uudenvuodenpäivä, uudenvuodenyö, uudenvuodenaatto. Myös aattoa edeltävän päivän nimitys aatonaatto on yhdyssana. Toivotuksessa hyvää uutta vuotta tarkoitetaan koko tulevaa vuotta eikä vain sen ensimmäistä päivää, ja siksi sanat kirjoitetaan erikseen.

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby WinstonSmith » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:29 pm

It's not my intention to be rude or to hurt anyone's good will, but I think the card could have been handled a bit better. If I can be honest, it looks really "amatorial" to me, and far from the image we may want to give to the users :(
Moreover, the text which explains how to get removed from the mailing list is only in my language, so it really wouldn't have been hard to write the greetings only in my language (as a text, not as a 180-kB image). :(

PS. I also provided a translation in Esperanto, in the previous page of this topic, but it looks like it was forgotten. No problem with that, though. Mistakes happen ;)

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Phaseolus » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:52 pm

WinstonSmith wrote:It's not my intention to be rude or to hurt anyone's good will, but I think the card could have been handled a bit better. If I can be honest, it looks really "amatorial" to me, and far from the image we may want to give to the users :(
Moreover, the text which explains how to get removed from the mailing list is only in my language, so it really wouldn't have been hard to write the greetings only in my language (as a text, not as a 180-kB image). :(

PS. I also provided a translation in Esperanto, in the previous page of this topic, but it looks like it was forgotten. No problem with that, though. Mistakes happen ;)


Well, thank you for your support !

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Regarding Esperanto, it is not a language of the Eurozone.
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Re: Text e-card

Postby WinstonSmith » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:31 pm

This initiative has got all my support (I even helped with a translation! :)). I tried to make clear that my criticism was not directed at those who worked for it, because their intentions are clearly good. (I don't clearly understand if it's you personally who made the picture: if this is the case, well, thanks.)

I make my congratulations to Nerzhul when he releases great features, and I congratulated to you and the other people who helped solve the big mess that happened around this time last year. If congratulations are allowed, I assumed that "criticism" would be allowed to; I tried not to be harmful to anyone, and to explain in detail what led me to say "it could have been handled better".

PS. Regarding Esperanto, it is an official language of EuroBillTracker! ;) I (wrongly?) assumed that all the languages of the website would be accepted on the e-card.

PS2. Other than Esperanto, the last part of the Portuguese (?) translation was also forgotten: "Segueix els bitllets Eslovacs!".

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Nerzhul » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:24 pm

WinstonSmith wrote:It's not my intention to be rude or to hurt anyone's good will, but I think the card could have been handled a bit better. If I can be honest, it looks really "amatorial" to me, and far from the image we may want to give to the users :(


I agree on this one. To me this mail looked just like another piece of junk which the spamfilter missed.

I wonder how many users unsubsribed from our "newsletter" because of this?
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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby helloggs » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:30 pm

Phaseolus wrote:
It's the difference between people that do something and people that are critizing. Some talk, other act.


Yes, and people who act should be able to stand criticism, especially if they decide everything on their own without asking the opinion of anyone else before hand. (or did I miss something?) :lol:

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Mr Euro » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:41 pm

I agree as well. The card is rather amateuristic. I never saw a basic design. Or am I not part of the group communication where I did volunteer for?

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Phaseolus » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:46 pm

helloggs wrote:Yes, and people who act should be able to stand criticism, especially if they decide everything on their own without asking the opinion of anyone else before hand. (or did I miss something?) :lol:


Well, this was a decision taken by the Board. So indeed you missed something. :wink:
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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby pooca » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:06 pm

I thought too it was spam... and I didn't even see any picture (for some reason my mail system wasn't able to open this .jpg). Thanks for sending nothing to me. This really wasn't the best idea to do...

edit: now after seeing the picture (I got the link) I can only wonder who made that not-so-good-looking pic and got the idea. *sigh*

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Re: TEXT E-CARD

Postby Ewri » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:42 pm

I think it was a good idea and was in favour of sending the card to our members. I also liked the idea of the various languages, however,for next time I suggest that we start working on this before, for a better product.


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