Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

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lmviterbo
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby lmviterbo » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:01 pm

Burdie wrote:
eddydevries wrote:Can you please move the notes entered as "Helsinki 00190" towards the city profile of "Suomenlinna" ?


Done, Result Notes entered from 560 to 2019, Hits from 9 to 49

If this was Portugal I would not hesitate in saying that changing locations Lisboa (nnnn) to any city other than Lisboa would be totally wrong. I also believe that this is the case for all countries. I can't look the rules up at the moment but I am almost sure that the system was designed to be unequivocally city-priority, meaning we should always assume that if someone enters a city and a postal code that do not match in reality then the city is the most likely correct one and the most likely mistake is in the postal code. Always. So Helsinki (nnnnn) should always be under Helsinki, even in this case. Just don't give any geo coordinates to these locations. This way, the coordinates are an average of all Helsinki correct coordinates and will not fall in SuomenlinnaThis is actually a good thing for two reasons : 1. Helsinki average coordinates will be much more correctly within Helsinki, 2. If someone complains, they can be told that they should change the city themselves.

As a side note, we the Portuguese city managers have been busy correcting this kind of wrongful over corrections. (Burdie, I suspect you did them.)

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby -flop- » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:14 am

lmviterbo wrote:
Burdie wrote:
eddydevries wrote:Can you please move the notes entered as "Helsinki 00190" towards the city profile of "Suomenlinna" ?


Done, Result Notes entered from 560 to 2019, Hits from 9 to 49

If this was Portugal I would not hesitate in saying that changing locations Lisboa (nnnn) to any city other than Lisboa would be totally wrong. I also believe that this is the case for all countries. I can't look the rules up at the moment but I am almost sure that the system was designed to be unequivocally city-priority, meaning we should always assume that if someone enters a city and a postal code that do not match in reality then the city is the most likely correct one and the most likely mistake is in the postal code. Always. So Helsinki (nnnnn) should always be under Helsinki, even in this case. Just don't give any geo coordinates to these locations. This way, the coordinates are an average of all Helsinki correct coordinates and will not fall in SuomenlinnaThis is actually a good thing for two reasons : 1. Helsinki average coordinates will be much more correctly within Helsinki, 2. If someone complains, they can be told that they should change the city themselves.

As a side note, we the Portuguese city managers have been busy correcting this kind of wrongful over corrections. (Burdie, I suspect you did them.)



Totally agree with you, lmviterbo.
In Italy we behave the same way: if location and postal code are not coherent, the city is taken as good and the postal code as wrong.
Only in the case when the location name is apparently not existing but the postal code is a good one then the note is assigned to the profile with that postal code.
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby aloxe » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:30 pm

-flop- wrote:In Italy we behave the same way: if location and postal code are not coherent, the city is taken as good and the postal code as wrong.


In the Netherlands, postcode is much more precise than the city. Most cities have more than one postal code and each of them is geocentered in a district/village/area that sometimes have also another name. And this makes sense to pinpoint the postcode rather than the city.

I don't know for Helsinki though
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby lmviterbo » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:35 pm

-flop- wrote:Only in the case when the location name is apparently not existing but the postal code is a good one then the note is assigned to the profile with that postal code.

On that case we don't do exactly like that in Portugal.

Here's what we are doing in Portugal and seems to be a good practice:
  1. If the "city" name on some location is recognizable as part of a city (a neighborhood or district, for example) and the postal code is good, we assign that location to the city it should be, and we don't assign coordinates. Hypothetical example: Trastevere (00153) would be assigned to Roma (ID 84000), but without coordinates.
  2. If the "city" name on some location is not recognizable, the location is assigned to the "Unknown" profile of the chosen country, even if the postal code exists. Hypothetical example: Daqualcheparte (00153), :flag-it: Italy would be assigned to Unknown (ID 20), without coordinates.
  3. If the "city" name on some location is recognizable but the country is not coherent, the location will be assigned to the "Unknown" profile of the country where that city is in reality (city-priority), not to that wrong country's "Unknown" profile. We follow this rule even if the postal code is not coherent. Hypothetical examples: Roma (00153), :flag-fr: France would be assigned to France's Unknown (ID 17), not Italy's Unknown (ID 20). Always without coordinates.
  4. In the very rare case of a location with a recognizable "city" name but uncoherent country, with a postal code that is recognizable as being from that uncoherent country, we might use a different rule. I haven't found this case yet. Hypothetical example: Marseille (91025), :flag-it: Italy might be better assigned to Unknown (Italy) than to Unknown (France), because it's reasonable to think that this would be a misspelling of Marsala, not the least because Marseille's postal codes are 13001 to 13016, not 91025. This reasoning is arguable, though, since it clearly breaks the general rule of city-priority.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby lmviterbo » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:38 pm

aloxe wrote:In the Netherlands, postcode is much more precise than the city. Most cities have more than one postal code and each of them is geocentered in a district/village/area that sometimes have also another name. And this makes sense to pinpoint the postcode rather than the city.

The very precise postal code system of the Netherlands is very similar to the one we use in Portugal.

Even so, it makes sense to follow the general rule of city-priority, because it's the way the system was designed. If we all follow the general rules, the system works flawlessly. Just do not assign coordinates to any incorrect locations, be it the "city" name, the postal code, or the combination of "city" and postal code.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby aloxe » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:06 pm

lmviterbo wrote:Even so, it makes sense to follow the general rule of city-priority, because it's the way the system was designed. If we all follow the general rules, the system works flawlessly. Just do not assign coordinates to any incorrect locations, be it the "city" name, the postal code, or the combination of "city" and postal code.


You talk about city-priority but you don't describe a priority but an obligation. If the zip code correspond to the city and it is possible to fine pinpoint it thanks to this zip code why would that be refused. This has sometimes implication with names too and can have some consequences in generated dots. What Would you recommend in the case of :flag-nl: Amsterdam / Amsterdam Zuidoost or :flag-de: Bremen / Bremenhaven or :flag-it: Città di Castello / Monte Ruperto or :flag-fr: Saint-Étienne / Saint-Victor-sur-Loire ?
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby groentje » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:56 am

Also in Belgium, postal services accept both chief municipality and the section, or any combination of the two, so I could write 3001 Heverlee, 3001 Leuven, 3001 Heverlee-Leuven, 3001 Leuven-Heverlee, 3001 Heverlee (Leuven) or 3001 Leuven (Heverlee), with Leuven being the main municipality, and Heverlee being the section in question. When a note says 3001, to me that means it's Heverlee (even if I can't be sure it's Heverlee proper, Haasrode or Egenhoven, which are parishes within the section of Heverlee).

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby de*lerger » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:46 am

The following note report shows a dot, but it doesn't appear on my dotmap:

Hattuvaara - 62.9316, 031.2807
Last edited by de*lerger on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby eddydevries » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:47 am

lmviterbo wrote:
Burdie wrote:
eddydevries wrote:Can you please move the notes entered as "Helsinki 00190" towards the city profile of "Suomenlinna" ?


Done, Result Notes entered from 560 to 2019, Hits from 9 to 49

If this was Portugal I would not hesitate in saying that changing locations Lisboa (nnnn) to any city other than Lisboa would be totally wrong. I also believe that this is the case for all countries. I can't look the rules up at the moment but I am almost sure that the system was designed to be unequivocally city-priority, meaning we should always assume that if someone enters a city and a postal code that do not match in reality then the city is the most likely correct one and the most likely mistake is in the postal code. Always. So Helsinki (nnnnn) should always be under Helsinki, even in this case. Just don't give any geo coordinates to these locations. This way, the coordinates are an average of all Helsinki correct coordinates and will not fall in SuomenlinnaThis is actually a good thing for two reasons : 1. Helsinki average coordinates will be much more correctly within Helsinki, 2. If someone complains, they can be told that they should change the city themselves.

I don't know if you're right in most cases.
I noticed the tickets you get at shops often say the name of the large city (for marketing reasons) or of the municipality (although there is no city with that name).
In this case it's the first reason. Because those notes weren't received in Helsinki, they shouldn't be counted for Helsinki (so your reason 1 would be a reason to exit those notes from the Helsinki-bunch).
Because the name of the city is entered wrong more times than a wrong postcode, it's better to prefer the postcode over the name of the city.
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby Burdie » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:42 pm

de*lerger wrote:The following note report shows a dot, but it doesn't appear on my dotmap:

Hattuvaara - 62.9316, 031.2807



Your dot was placed in Hattuvaara (Lieksa) Postcode 81650
Your dot is now on the correct place.

A question for the Suomi speakers. Under the profile was also Hatunkylä with the same postcode 81650
The only thing what I could find in wiki about Hatunkylä was this site in finnish https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattuvaara_(Lieksa)

Is Hattuvaara (Lieksa) and Hatunkylä one, must I split the profile. It is all double dutch to me ;-)
For the moment I renamed this profie Hatunkylä
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby mico » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:02 am

eddydevries wrote:
lmviterbo wrote:
Burdie wrote:
eddydevries wrote:Can you please move the notes entered as "Helsinki 00190" towards the city profile of "Suomenlinna" ?


Done, Result Notes entered from 560 to 2019, Hits from 9 to 49

If this was Portugal I would not hesitate in saying that changing locations Lisboa (nnnn) to any city other than Lisboa would be totally wrong. I also believe that this is the case for all countries.

Please, can you move my 4 banknotes entered as Helsinki 00190
1. http://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178251968
2. http://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178251969
3. http://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178251970
4. http://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178251971
from the city profile of Suomenlinna to the city profile of Helsinki :?:
Attachments
Suomenlinna.JPG
Suomenlinna.JPG (27.47 KiB) Viewed 247 times
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby Burdie » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:19 am



I see that K-Market Suomenlinna and Cafe Piper (see your description) are both on Suomenlinna. So in my point of view, the dot is on the right spot and the notes are in the right city profile
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby mico » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:38 pm

Burdie wrote:

Hi Burdie and thanks for your answer
Burdie wrote:I see that K-Market Suomenlinna and Cafe Piper (see your description) are both on Suomenlinna. So in my point of view, the dot is on the right spot
I'm agree with you

Burdie wrote:and the notes are in the right city profile
I'm not agree with you

according to me, 00190 Suomenlinna is a part of the municipality of Helsinki :arrow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomenlinna

I've tracked 2 banknotes from 00970 Mellunmäki and they are correctly linked to the city profile of Helsinki's municipality
1. https://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178270871
2. https://it.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=178270872

so, I think that the only difference between 00190 Suomenlinna and 00970 Mellunmäki is the postal code. Both are a part of the municipality of Helsinki
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby Burdie » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:26 pm

mico wrote:
so, I think that the only difference between 00190 Suomenlinna and 00970 Mellunmäki is the postal code. Both are a part of the municipality of Helsinki



I think we have no more a (actice) city manager from Finland.
What I see that we have a city profile for Suomenlinna and no city profile for Mellunmäki
Mellunmäki is a quarter in Helsinki, and Suomenlinna is now a part of Helsinki but was a civil administration area in the past.
For that reason I can understand that there is a city profile for Suomenlinna and not for Mellunmäki.

For the moment I leave it like this. Whe shell see what other people think about this.
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Postby Ord€p » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:50 am

I got this note in the Brussels-Schuman Station but when i see my dots, this dot is missing.


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