European Union - For or Against?

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European Union

For
49
86%
Against
8
14%
 
Total votes: 57

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melitikus
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European Union - For or Against?

Postby melitikus » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:09 pm

i would like to get the opinion of the euro bill trackers on the EU
are you in favor or against - why?

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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby Dakkus » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:19 pm

European Union is the largest peace project in the history of world. It is there to make sure different European powers don't try to compete with each other, but rather work together. This is a good way of making sure they don't get envious to each other, which might cause them to attack around, like the history has shown.

The European Union also makes my life easier, as I can travel around without border controls, can use the same currency in a very large geographical area and also require somewhat less bureaucracy when living outside my own language area than I would, if there was no EU. I also believe the economical effects end up being positive for every member state if you take everything into account. But the other things are of course more important than economy. Even if EU would drain more money than it brings, I would prefer living in a bit poorer place but having a nicer and easier life with more safety and possibilities over having a super-good national economy and being locked in a cage of super-good national borders - in worst case sent to move those borders with a green helmet on my head..
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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby Juristi M » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:01 pm

Dakkus took the words out of my mouth. I FULLY agree with him!

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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby an-148 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:33 pm

absolutely the same for me: it's the very first time in the whole history of human being that countries move together without conquest and blood :D :D

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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby Jes » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:37 pm

fully agree with all you :D and I don't think many trackers may think the contrary :lol:
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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby ART » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:19 pm

European union is a positive entity... but alone "it's nothing".
It's a community of independent states with relatively inefficient organization (like normal for all the similar organizations, even if much more deepened): It allows us to avoid europeans domestic big tensions, outweigh in the world, a solid economy... but alone not enough, it will not guarantee our future.
Truly fundamental is the process of European integration, the one that is begun in 1950 and that as final purpose doesn't have the formation of a community of independent states (how much really "independent" forehead to present and future super-powers from the enormous population?) but a federal and democratic union of Europe. This is the only way, the rest is pure illusion.
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"Let's go to see the monsters" (Andrea)
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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby Dakkus » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:17 am

I kinda like the idea of very tightly integrated EU, as well. The important reason for independence of a country is protection of the own culture from dying away. That, however, happens through languages. If the language used by the culture dies away, so does the culture. But with the leaders - Germany, France and UK - all being so blind to the existence of other languages, I don't really fear EU could ever even theoretically become monolingual. As long as it doesn't do that, also the smaller languages should be completely safe. And when the languages are safe, so are the cultures. A longer term cultural integration in the scope of centuries might take place, but then again, I don't really find that a bad thing. I myself come from a culture that has its roots somewhere in middle of the territory now controlled by Russia. That culture has been very far away from the European culture, but in the last few millenia, especially the last 500 years, it has gotten already very European. I do not think it is a loss, although some things (such as religion) for sure have been replaced by European standards.
And yet, the Finnish culture still remains very distinct from the bulk of European cultures. If there was a risk of a culture disappearing in a predominantly multilingual environment, it would already have happened.

However, what I am a bit afraid is the military strength.
EU is a fantastic peace project, because it makes sure the different European nations will never end up in a war with each other. But at the same time we are creating an overly strong power block. There will be more and more tension between EU, USA, Russia and China. And maybe in the future also AU will join. Then we, once again, have units that are about the same size and might feel motivated to beat each other up. For the civilians suffering of the war it doesn't really matter if they are suffering of a war between France and UK or from one between EU and USA. In that manner the peace project might kill itself.
However.. Back in the past the individual states in Europe had a lot more importance than they now do. They could even be compared to how the different larger power blocks now are. If it was possible reaching the unimaginable by uniting Germany, France and UK, it will also be possible uniting USA, EU, China, Russia and AU somewhere in the future. And when the world is just one tightly-united federation, there isn't much anyone left to wage war against.
Therefore, even if this peace project was to wage war against another peace project in a long term, the peace project is the only way of getting rid of the borders in the even longer term.
And as long as out planet is not completely united, there will be wars bringing suffering.

So, go on, integrate in peace and let all cultures blossom under the integration.
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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby MDeen » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:01 pm

I am against the EU in its current form. I had no problem at all how it started, as the European Economic Community (and being dutch, I always had the joy of the open borders to Belgium and Luxemburg), but the political unitity that is being pushed forward is against the feelings I have for seperate states. I see a very bureaucratic entity (that also wastes a lot of money by assembling in two different cities) that tries to push rules to all countries in the EU. But these contries are so very different that this general movement is not possible.

And on top of that, our dutch government has a habit of trying to hide behind "European rules", although our government is the one who implements (and can choose not to do so) these rules. For instance: our transport minister said that the very slow lifting of the flightban due to the ashcloud was due to European regulations.
Then my mind goes "WTF, do you have nothing to say in your own country?". Is the EU your dad and is our own government the little child that has nothing to say in its own room? For me, that crosses the line of souvereign countries. My Netherlands is my country and I do not want it governed by the assembled European population.

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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby tabbs » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:05 pm

MDeen wrote:My Netherlands is my country and I do not want it governed by the assembled European population.

Of course we can all go back to how things were before the early 1950s, when each European country felt an acted like a "sovereign nation". In my opinion, however, the founding "fathers" of what today is the European Union had excellent reasons to move forward, and replace the old style bilateral agreements and alliances (which were always, more or less explicitly, directed against those that were not part of the alliance) by a community of "inter-dependent" countries.

The idea of trashing the European Union, and the euro, seems to enjoy growing popularity these days. But what some euro-neocons apparently consider to be an alternative - back to the nation state of the 19th and early 20th centuries - will simply not work these days.

Christian

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Re: European Union - For or Against?

Postby ART » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:51 am

MDeen wrote:I am against the EU in its current form.


I also, I want it seriously united.

MDeen wrote: but the political unitity that is being pushed forward is against the feelings I have for seperate states. I see a very bureaucratic entity (that also wastes a lot of money by assembling in two different cities) that tries to push rules to all countries in the EU. But these contries are so very different that this general movement is not possible.

My Netherlands is my country and I do not want it governed by the assembled European population.


The process of European integration has been born exactly from the end of the illusion that the European states can indeed be sovereign in the world. We can continue to dream this... but the truth, pleasant or disagreeable, is different.
"If you lose, you can't win" (Andrea)
"Let's go to see the monsters" (Andrea)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
European soul, European pride.


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