Turkey in Europe?

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Should Turkey join the European Union?

Yes!
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No !
162
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Postby alex77r » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:54 pm

Just to show you the poster I have seen during my holidays by visiting Venezia (Italy) :

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Big size

And I immediatly remembered this topic :)

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Postby starcapitan » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:57 pm

I mean : I can live without Turkey in EU.
But if it changes a lot , I would be :D if it joined :lol:
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Postby Jes » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:47 am

I think the musilm culture is not compatible with us or our culture...

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Postby Phaseolus » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:24 am

Jes wrote:I think the musilm culture is not compatible with us or our culture...


I am always very afraid when I hear such statements.

First of all, muslims are a part of Europe. It is a fact. They are many muslims living in Europe nowadays. They are fully Europeans with their own cultural background. I have serious doubts about the "unicity" of European culture ; we are a mixture of distinct peoples ; with a great variation in languages (latin, germanic, slavian, ougro-finnish, basque, celtic,...), in history (actual borders are the result of history), in religion (catholic, protestants, anglicans, orthodox, jews, muslim and let's not forget the people that just don't believe in the existence of God). Some regions of the "current" Europe have already a majority of muslims (such as some "peripherical regions" of Europe, e.g. Mayotte is a French island of many thousands inhabitants with Islam as a religion). In France, we have a large minority of Muslim (between 5 to 10%) ; are these French people not worth to be quoted as Europeans ?

In Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is a large muslim community, such in Albania ; should these people not be integrated within the EU in the coming years ?

I am in favour of the integration of Turkey in Europe as we have the opportunity to offer to this big country to join our community ; giving them a reason for changing things that need to be improved. I fear also that if we reject the Turks, they might take a look to other directions, similar to some other countries that chose for fundamentalism.

At last, may I remind everybody that the EU is NOT meant to become a supra-nation... It is nowadays an integrated economical area. Why should we link religion to economical interest ?
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Postby ART » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:31 am

Phaseolus wrote:At last, may I remind everybody that the EU is NOT meant to become a supra-nation...


The process of European integration is meant since the first day of existence in order to become a future political union. Read the Schuman Declaration, the founder act.

Phaseolus wrote:It is nowadays an integrated economical area. Why should we link religion to economical interest ?


Well, probably for you the Europe must remain a simple economic union of states, good business and no more. It's good all the expansions: EU also can be transformed in a miniaturized copy of the UN... it's the same.
Instead I want a united Europe, a political and democratic union: in this optic EU is already too much expanded as regards the level of inner compactness, and Turkey isn't ready to join EU for many economic and political reasons, not religious, for example democratic status (parliament widely controlled from the Armed Forces, respect of the minorities nearly null) and economical situation (actually excessive high disparity with EU).
But main one of these reasons is that Turkey has a sort of "Cold War" with a UE-state, Greece, and military partial occupation of another UE-state, Cyprus. In actual situation the Turkey in EU it's a totally absurd idea... we wouldn't to speak not even.
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Postby Phaseolus » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:34 am

Having worked four years as a lobbyist in Brussels, I am quite confident when stating that the EU is NOT meant to become anything else but an integrated economical area. Having lived 25 years in a federal country, I am not looking forward to any other "federal Europe".

You state that Turkey is not ready to integrate Europe nowadays... It may be true... But we accepted Greece in 1980 which was in a bad economical state in these years ; but the idea is that we had to integrate Greece in order to avoid it to fall into communist hands. Were Spain and Portugal rich countries when they joined the EU ? Was Ireland well-being ? Are Bulgaria and Rumania models for respect of Roms-minority or for corruption ? Do France always respect all EU-rules ? Was Italy really worth to join the EU, before they did create fake accounts ? Is the Catholic integrism of some Polish, Spanish and Italian better then a Muslim respect of some basic rules of Islam ?

Do I need to give more examples ?

My idea is that by giving a real opportunity to Turkey to join the EU we offer them a possibility to change laws and make the necessary improvments for joining our community. By rejecting them (whatever changes they want to do), I would not be surprised if one day, they would feel rejected and therefor might chose other ways then the diplomatic discussions that are currently going on.
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Postby ART » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:16 pm

Phaseolus wrote:Having worked four years as a lobbyist in Brussels, I am quite confident when stating that the EU is NOT meant to become anything else but an integrated economical area. Having lived 25 years in a federal country, I am not looking forward to any other "federal Europe".


"EU" and "European integration" are a different elements: EU is an actual result (badly successful, for precise reason) of the European integration process, that is slow and not sure of success, yes, but it has been founded declared with federal purposes: that the actual politicians "forget" this are an other speech.

However this isn't the single reason to avoid enlargements without to strengthen seriously the EU inside: it's the same sturucture of EU, also actual, that doesn't have hopes to resist along if we continues like now.


Phaseolus wrote:You state that Turkey is not ready to integrate Europe nowadays... It may be true...


It IS true, and it's evident.

Phaseolus wrote:But we accepted Greece in 1980 which was in a bad economical state in these years ; but the idea is that we had to integrate Greece in order to avoid it to fall into communist hands. Were Spain and Portugal rich countries when they joined the EU ? Was Ireland well-being ?


Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal don't have the population of Turkey and aren't at the same time in EU: the problem is that the EU of those age was different from odiern. Now it's already too much big in order to guarantee a decent operate regarding its level of inner unit and regarding the possibility to find agreements on the main matters, what that is becoming practically impossible.

Phaseolus wrote:Are Bulgaria and Rumania models for respect of Roms-minority or for corruption ? Do France always respect all EU-rules ? Was Italy really worth to join the EU, before they did create fake accounts ? Is the Catholic integrism of some Polish, Spanish and Italian better then a Muslim respect of some basic rules of Islam ?


The fact that the army controls de facto the parliament you seems simple "corruption"?

Phaseolus wrote:My idea is that by giving a real opportunity to Turkey to join the EU we offer them a possibility to change laws and make the necessary improvments for joining our community. By rejecting them (whatever changes they want to do), I would not be surprised if one day, they would feel rejected and therefor might chose other ways then the diplomatic discussions that are currently going on.


Under the join of Turkey in EU, like Bulgaria and Romania also, are precise interests of the economic lobbies (and political too: look USA) that support the European ruling class. The fact that Turkey risks to falling in hand to the Muslim integralism is in minimal part true, but it's a "intentionally created" problem because Turkey, before the acceptation to negotiates of adhesion, didn't run no risk of the sort. Indeed, he was much determined, stable and "obedient" to the demands for greater democracy from the EU just because it chased the dream of being able to enter.

Now the "damage" is made, but the majority of the European population isn't disposed to be dealt from idiot from the politicians, as the aware part of this problem isn't disposed to pretend that all is good in front of the situation of Greece and Cyprus.
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Cyprus nord

Postby starcapitan » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:13 pm

The problem of Cyprus nord is very big about Turkey joining EU 8O
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Re: Cyprus nord

Postby Phaseolus » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:27 pm

starcapitan wrote:The problem of Cyprus nord is very big about Turkey joining EU 8O


Well, it's by talking with Turkey that we might find a solution to this issue. Just for a reminder, the UN-proposal for a solution for Cyprus was rejected by the Greek part of Cyprus ; and not by the Turkish part... Don't blame to rapidly Turks for all problems ; especially since they entered the Cyprian territory after a military take-over of Cyprus by Greek Generals.
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Re: Cyprus nord

Postby Tiverius » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:40 pm

Phaseolus wrote:
starcapitan wrote:The problem of Cyprus nord is very big about Turkey joining EU 8O


Well, it's by talking with Turkey that we might find a solution to this issue. Just for a reminder, the UN-proposal for a solution for Cyprus was rejected by the Greek part of Cyprus ; and not by the Turkish part... Don't blame to rapidly Turks for all problems ; especially since they entered the Cyprian territory after a military take-over of Cyprus by Greek Generals.


I would remind you (again) that Security Council of UN has repeatedly condemed the illegal occupation of northern part of the Republic of Cyprus since the first day of invasion.
Anan plan was rejected by the Greek-Cypriots because it was saying that 15% of population would be equal with the 85% of population which of course is not fair (1 year Greek-Cypriot president,1 year of Turkish Cypriot president).That means that elections would mean nothing.
Anan plan also saying that if there is any disagreement between the two sides,there would be a higher court with 3 Greek Cypriot members,3 Turkish Cypriot members and 3 foreign members (appointed by UN) that would give the solution! So 3 people that aren't Cypriots would decide for the future of Cyprus. Reminds you of Banana Republics? Would you accept 3 Greeks to take part for the desicions in your country?
Greek-Cypriots would only gain the ghost town of Ammochostos (Famagusta) and some other territories. But no homes would be returned to their refugees Greek-Cypriots owners.
The military coup in Cyprus has ended since 1976. Too many years to protect the Turkish-Cypriot minority,don't you think?
Problem can be solved by returning to the constitution of 1960 with Greek-Cypriot president,Turkish-Cypriot Vice president,3 countries (Greece,Turkey and UK) as protective powers of the Republic and 3 official languages (last still in power in free parts of Cyprus). Problem won't be solved by talking to the military dictatorship that rules Turkey for so many years in "secret".

But we accepted Greece in 1980 which was in a bad economical state in these years ; but the idea is that we had to integrate Greece in order to avoid it to fall into communist hands. Were Spain and Portugal rich countries when they joined the EU ? Was Ireland well-being ? Are Bulgaria and Rumania models for respect of Roms-minority or for corruption ?


Greece wasn't in a good economical state, but the comparison between bad economical state and an invasion to another country is unlucky. Also Greece is not threating anyone with war if expands its sea border to 12 nautical miles which is a legal right of any country according to the international law about the sea. Turkey does it against Greece and doesn't appear to the court of Hague to solve this "problem" as we asked repeatedely. I would remind you (again) that Greece wouldn't fall into communist hands as you say, cause this situation ended with the civil war of 1946-1950 were communist rebels lost the war once and for all. I honestly don't know about Ireland. Spain and Portugal weren't rich but they had (and still have) the best connections with Latin America which in the long term would benefit EU which is a economical union mostly. Bulgaria (which I recently visit) and Romania joined, so the big capital will move its factories there to find cheaper working hands and won't have to pay tax when products return to EU. They are the "China" of EU.

Of course there are many other things which you don't know as a lobbyist in Brussels and allow me to know better than you.I should remind you (again) that I have seen Turkish F-16 flying daily over Greek islands,violating Athens FIR and chased back by our F-16, I have seen turkish citizens putting their flag to Greek (small, but still Greek, according to the treaty of Laussane) and almost cause war, I have seen hundrends dressed in black mothers in Cyprus waiting for the return of their children (or at least their bones) missing since the invasion.
I am so sorry for repeating these things (in previous pages), but things haven't change in a better way. Latest news are that a few months ago the chief of Turkish army said that Turkish borders with Greece should be over Syros island in a meeting of balkan states generals held in Thessaloniki and of course we didn't react, so we will not harm the entrance of Turkey in EU.Nowdays it's quite quiet. Turkish army is busy in northern Iraq.
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Postby Phaseolus » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:17 pm

@ Tiverius : so, in summary, you do not disagree with my previous statements : there was a UN-proposal ; and it was rejected for some reasons, obviously, but, it was rejected by the Greek part...

You know, there has been wars in other parts of Europe, and we learned to discuss and work together with time ; before one could speak about the so-called "great French-German Friendship" ; there has been 3 wars in 60 years.

So, now that you have seen mothers waiting for their sons, don't you believe that time has come to end a period of history and start a new one ? How long do you want the current situation to go on ? What is your proposal for a change ? Do you want a change ?

Only making a summary of the existing situation does not solve the issue... Even if your story may sound convincing.

One last thing : let me restate one little thing : Greece was in 1980, in a very bad economical situation and has benefit since then from a continuous flow of cash for paying for improving its infrastructure ; and my correction is the following : Greece is still in a very bad economical situation and, to the difference of Portugal, Spain and Ireland, that have made very nice evolutions, Greece is still lagging behind...

Maybe your fear is that once Turkey will be part of the UE, Greece will still be the weak link with this country ?
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Postby Tiverius » Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:59 pm

Phaseolus wrote:@ Tiverius : so, in summary, you do not disagree with my previous statements : there was a UN-proposal ; and it was rejected for some reasons, obviously, but, it was rejected by the Greek part...

You know, there has been wars in other parts of Europe, and we learned to discuss and work together with time ; before one could speak about the so-called "great French-German Friendship" ; there has been 3 wars in 60 years.

So, now that you have seen mothers waiting for their sons, don't you believe that time has come to end a period of history and start a new one ? How long do you want the current situation to go on ? What is your proposal for a change ? Do you want a change ?

Only making a summary of the existing situation does not solve the issue... Even if your story may sound convincing.

One last thing : let me restate one little thing : Greece was in 1980, in a very bad economical situation and has benefit since then from a continuous flow of cash for paying for improving its infrastructure ; and my correction is the following : Greece is still in a very bad economical situation and, to the difference of Portugal, Spain and Ireland, that have made very nice evolutions, Greece is still lagging behind...

Maybe your fear is that once Turkey will be part of the UE, Greece will still be the weak link with this country ?


That is correct.I just mention why rejected.Isn't that important?

The change can come only if both sides are willing to change (like France and Germany you mention). We are ready and we have prove it. First of all,at the moment we don't put any obstacle in Turkey's way in EU. We are not answering to any of their hostile acts. We have asked them many times to solve any dispute in the Aegean Sea in the international court of Hague and they refuse to attend. Change comes through dialogue.We are willing, are they? As I have said before you are not inviting to your house someone that wants to kill you. You keep him out, solve the problem and if he decides that he doesn't want to kill you anymore you invite him for a tea (or coffee).
By the way, there would have been much more than 3 wars in less years if there was not a power race between two countries. If Turkey felt that they were stronger than us they would attack,we wouldn't if we were stronger. As Turkish prime minister Ozal said in the 80s "We will solve the problems with Greece in a few years when we will be 60.000.000" meaning the use of force. We are still waiting. They have the numbers, we have the quality.
The difference between you and me is that you want Turkey inside EU at any cost, I want Turkey inside EU only when it is 100% safe for all Greeks. First we solve problems (which are not caused by us) then we become brothers. That's how it happened between France and Germany,right?

We have accomplished many things with the money given from EU (to mention some,new highways connecting all big cities and ports of Greece, new railway which replace old one build in 19th century,expansion of Athens Metro and build of Thessaloniki Metro, highways inside the city of Athens,Rio-Antirio bridge,new airport in Athens, Olympic infrastructures and thousand smaller works) and we are really greatful for that. But, no my friend. Greece of 1980 is not the same with Greece of today. Many of the money given were mispend, stolen or given to wrong directions, but many things moved forward. Yes, we are not in the same potition with Spain and Ireland (I don't think that things in Portugal are any better than here, been there twice), but there are many differences between three countries (apart from bad use of money given from EU to our goverments which I admit). Till recently,we didn't have common borders with other EU states, which rise the price of our products, we don't have the same natural resources, and we don't spend the same money to buy weapons to protect our countries. Is Spain,Portugal or Ireland threatened by anyone? We have the biggest percentage of illegal immigrants in EU (around 10% of population) because we are at the "door" of EU (Spain and Italy have similar problem) and we don't have the same connections and accessibillity in the Latin America market as Spain and Portugal have. Anyway, during the Simitis goverments and two years after, Greece was helding the highest development rate among EU members (around 6%) which means that not all money spread to four winds.

I don't have any fear and it's more possible that Germany or France will have bigger problems if it happens. Probably Turkish will be smart enough not to come to "poor" Greece, but to wealthy countries of the North. But I remind you (again), that the road of Turkey to EU, pass through the referendum of the Greek voters. If they behave, they are in. If not,they are out.
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Postby Phaseolus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:32 pm

Tiverius wrote: If they behave, they are in. If not,they are out.


Well, I share this point of view ; they are conditions and these must be respected ; and I hope that they will succeed, which will benefit to both Turks and Europeans.

Contrary to what you stated, I do not want Turkey "at any cost". I simply want to give Turkey a chance to get in, if they fit to the requirements that have been laid down to all other countries since 1973 ; I feel uneasy when some nations, put some additional requirements that they do not respect themselves.

Let me give an example : France has committed war crimes in Algeria in 1960 ; France does not even consider this part of history as a "war" and no one has ever been put into jail, although there is evidence for organised torture acts by the French army in Algeria. I feel uneasy that this country prefers to give lessons to other countries (including Turkey), whilst it is still avoid all discussion on this point.
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Re: Cyprus nord

Postby Dakkus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:07 pm

Tiverius wrote:
Phaseolus wrote:
starcapitan wrote:The problem of Cyprus nord is very big about Turkey joining EU 8O


Well, it's by talking with Turkey that we might find a solution to this issue. Just for a reminder, the UN-proposal for a solution for Cyprus was rejected by the Greek part of Cyprus ; and not by the Turkish part... Don't blame to rapidly Turks for all problems ; especially since they entered the Cyprian territory after a military take-over of Cyprus by Greek Generals.


I would remind you (again) that Security Council of UN has repeatedly condemed the illegal occupation of northern part of the Republic of Cyprus since the first day of invasion.
Anan plan was rejected by the Greek-Cypriots because it was saying that 15% of population would be equal with the 85% of population which of course is not fair


Only if you think on some principal level. In Finland 6% of the population are Swedish-speaking. And still the two languages are officially equal. (in reality of course not, because this is about people, after all. Which is of course what would also happen in Cyprus).
In Belgium the situation is 60-40, which isn't quite 50-50, either. And yet, the two languages are equal. (And how about the Belgian state of Brussels? Isn't something like 80-20 there and still the state is bilingual?)
15% is big enough a part of people that they should be specially thought of. The people are equal and you can't just dismiss 15% of the people.
Tiverius wrote:
(1 year Greek-Cypriot president,1 year of Turkish Cypriot president).That means that elections would mean nothing.


That is true only if you assume that all Cypriot-Turks are clones of each other. In reality, each of them has his own mind. The language alone doesn't mean anything. Since 85% of the people are Greek speaking, the people would of course vote for a Turkish-speaker whose lead would best suit the interests of the Greek speakers. The same people would still get to vote and they would for sure find someone suiting their needs well enough. Because all people are different.

Tiverius wrote:Anan plan also saying that if there is any disagreement between the two sides,there would be a higher court with 3 Greek Cypriot members,3 Turkish Cypriot members and 3 foreign members (appointed by UN) that would give the solution! So 3 people that aren't Cypriots would decide for the future of Cyprus. Reminds you of Banana Republics? Would you accept 3 Greeks to take part for the desicions in your country?


UN should be able to find negotiatiors who would not have any interests about Cyprus. Maybe choose one from Zambia, one from Singapore and one from Nicaragua.
If the three people can be considered truly neutral, I don't see any problem in this. Finland has very often been in the role of the neutral party and we have also let neutral parties make some decisions about Finland. (mainly the Åland issue)

Tiverius wrote:Greek-Cypriots would only gain the ghost town of Ammochostos (Famagusta) and some other territories. But no homes would be returned to their refugees Greek-Cypriots owners.
The military coup in Cyprus has ended since 1976. Too many years to protect the Turkish-Cypriot minority,don't you think?
Problem can be solved by returning to the constitution of 1960 with Greek-Cypriot president,Turkish-Cypriot Vice president,3 countries (Greece,Turkey and UK) as protective powers of the Republic and 3 official languages (last still in power in free parts of Cyprus). Problem won't be solved by talking to the military dictatorship that rules Turkey for so many years in "secret".

Well, as long as you bring it all the way to end, talking NEVER has a bad net value.
And besides, the Turkish-speaking part of Cyprus does have its own leader. That's the one who should be talked with, not the bulk of Turkish parliament.

Tiverius wrote:
But we accepted Greece in 1980 which was in a bad economical state in these years ; but the idea is that we had to integrate Greece in order to avoid it to fall into communist hands. Were Spain and Portugal rich countries when they joined the EU ? Was Ireland well-being ? Are Bulgaria and Rumania models for respect of Roms-minority or for corruption ?


Greece wasn't in a good economical state, but the comparison between bad economical state and an invasion to another country is unlucky.


The invasion of course ends at the moment all Cypriots (of which 85% are Greek-speaking) have voting right on the issues of the whole island. After that no part of the island is under Turkish rule or Greek rule. Only under Cypriot rule.

Tiverius wrote: Also Greece is not threating anyone with war if expands its sea border to 12 nautical miles which is a legal right of any country according to the international law about the sea.


Blah?
I wouldn't call such thing exactly very unique.
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Postby Dakkus » Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:21 pm

Tiverius wrote:
That is correct.I just mention why rejected.Isn't that important?

The change can come only if both sides are willing to change (like France and Germany you mention). We are ready and we have prove it. First of all,at the moment we don't put any obstacle in Turkey's way in EU. We are not answering to any of their hostile acts. We have asked them many times to solve any dispute in the Aegean Sea in the international court of Hague and they refuse to attend. Change comes through dialogue.We are willing, are they? As I have said before you are not inviting to your house someone that wants to kill you. You keep him out, solve the problem and if he decides that he doesn't want to kill you anymore you invite him for a tea (or coffee).


Errm.. If someone wanted to kill me and would like to sit with me in my tea table to resolve the issue, I wouldn't of course oppose that! Of course provided that he wouldn't kill me in the tea table, but I don't think Turkey would suddenly kill all Greek people during an international meeting...
Tiverius wrote:
By the way, there would have been much more than 3 wars in less years if there was not a power race between two countries. If Turkey felt that they were stronger than us they would attack,we wouldn't if we were stronger. As Turkish prime minister Ozal said in the 80s "We will solve the problems with Greece in a few years when we will be 60.000.000" meaning the use of force. We are still waiting. They have the numbers, we have the quality.
The difference between you and me is that you want Turkey inside EU at any cost, I want Turkey inside EU only when it is 100% safe for all Greeks. First we solve problems (which are not caused by us) then we become brothers. That's how it happened between France and Germany,right?


Do you really believe that Turkey would invade a part of Greece AFTER its accession to EU?! If yes, why?

Tiverius wrote:We have accomplished many things with the money given from EU (to mention some,new highways connecting all big cities and ports of Greece, new railway which replace old one build in 19th century,expansion of Athens Metro and build of Thessaloniki Metro, highways inside the city of Athens,Rio-Antirio bridge,new airport in Athens, Olympic infrastructures and thousand smaller works) and we are really greatful for that. But, no my friend. Greece of 1980 is not the same with Greece of today. Many of the money given were mispend, stolen or given to wrong directions, but many things moved forward. Yes, we are not in the same potition with Spain and Ireland (I don't think that things in Portugal are any better than here, been there twice), but there are many differences between three countries (apart from bad use of money given from EU to our goverments which I admit). Till recently,we didn't have common borders with other EU states, which rise the price of our products, we don't have the same natural resources, and we don't spend the same money to buy weapons to protect our countries. Is Spain,Portugal or Ireland threatened by anyone? We have the biggest percentage of illegal immigrants in EU (around 10% of population) because we are at the "door" of EU (Spain and Italy have similar problem) and we don't have the same connections and accessibillity in the Latin America market as Spain and Portugal have. Anyway, during the Simitis goverments and two years after, Greece was helding the highest development rate among EU members (around 6%) which means that not all money spread to four winds.

I don't have any fear and it's more possible that Germany or France will have bigger problems if it happens. Probably Turkish will be smart enough not to come to "poor" Greece, but to wealthy countries of the North. But I remind you (again), that the road of Turkey to EU, pass through the referendum of the Greek voters. If they behave, they are in. If not,they are out.


And since your aggressive point is luckily a minority in Greece, the possibility lives :)
Ko saka āboliņš? Pēk pēk pēk!


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