Lisbon treaty

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ART
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Post by ART »

tabbs wrote:Let's put it this way: I wish I could share your optimism. ;)
Our "optimism" has a concrete justification: we realise how much is more and more fictitious the sovereignty of the European states in the world, if considered singularly, and the big risks if the EU will not be really independent.
tabbs wrote:However, if the majority of the Europeans does not want such an EU ...
This is just the matter: how we knowing how many wants a different Europe if the governings don't discuss never about this? They plan their useless treatys instead to discuss seriously with the people about the future of Europe.
European soul, European pride.
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Fjon
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Post by Fjon »

Some very interesting replies there, especially from tabbs and WinstonSmith.
I'm going to sit on the fence for this, but would like to add a few facts based on personal experience of talking to our average Irish person:

The people who voted No, voted so for a large number of different reasons. The main one being: they were not happy with the constitution.
Most people haven't even contemplated leaving the EU, nor do they want to.
A few of people who voted Yes were doing it as they didn't want Ireland to be embarrassed in front of Europe by a No vote.
Others did it because they liked the constitution, and felt that if all other 26 parliaments automatically ratified the treaty it can't be bad.

I do think it's both good and bad that Ireland is in a situtation where we are obliged to hold referendums (referandae?) for these sorts of things. I only wish there were other countries in the same boat though.
If any of the other 26 held referendums on this treaty, how would it have gone?
If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation.
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Post by tabbs »

Fjon wrote:If any of the other 26 held referendums on this treaty, how would it have gone?
Hard to tell, but I am pretty darn sure that you would always have a majority in at least one member state, quite possibly more, against it. (By the way, what "constitution" was that vote about? :wink: )

This is another problem - I am not terribly fond of referendums when it comes to complex issues such as the Lisbon Treaty but I'm not against them either. However, they should be at the level that the law/proposition affects: I would be more comfortable if EU wide issues would be dealt with in EU wide referendums. Yes, not possible according to the current "setup" of the European Union, and that is not going to change unless all 27 etc. etc.

Christian
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Re: Lisbon treaty

Post by tabbs »

Now that the Irish voted for the Lisbon Treaty (on 2 Oct about two thirds of the votes were for it, one third against it), it will be interesting to see what happens next. Vaclav Klaus, the Czech president, is still determined to trash it, and if David Cameron gets elected in the UK next spring (quite likely), there will be a referendum in the UK about the Treaty, provided it is still not in effect then. Not exactly hard to imagine what that would mean ...

Christian
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