Turkey in Europe?

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Should Turkey join the European Union?

Yes!
55
25%
No !
162
75%
 
Total votes: 217

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claudio vda
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Re: Turkey in Europe?

Postby claudio vda » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:18 am

Ouf, when I cited the Greek veto was just an example, in my post I cited also problems of other countries, I didn't want to suscitate all this flame!

I agree that Turkey is not ready for join E.U., but not for geographical reasons. Also Serbia is not ready, just for making another example.
Turkey is not ready, but you can't consider Turkey as something of external of Europe: until the beginning of the XX century, Turkey and Austria were the biggest countries of Balkans, and Balkans are Europe, you cannot deny that. European culture was deeply influenced by Turkish one (e.g. : the croissant), and it is under Turkish laws that in XV century in Bosnia was builded a multiethnic society.
Do you remember? In 1463 the Blagaj law was a guarantee for all the different religions in the Turkish empire, exactly the contrary of what happened in 1492 in Spain, when Jewish and Muslim people were expelled. This examples are for to say that Turkey is deeply connected to the European story, and if today , 23/01/2011 Turkey is not ready at all for Europe, we can't exclude that maybe in the future it will be.
Because Turkey is not simply Europe or simply Middle-East: it is both.
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Re: Turkey in Europe?

Postby Dakkus » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:54 am

claudio vda wrote:Ouf, when I cited the Greek veto was just an example, in my post I cited also problems of other countries, I didn't want to suscitate all this flame!

I agree that Turkey is not ready for join E.U., but not for geographical reasons. Also Serbia is not ready, just for making another example.
Turkey is not ready, but you can't consider Turkey as something of external of Europe: until the beginning of the XX century, Turkey and Austria were the biggest countries of Balkans, and Balkans are Europe, you cannot deny that. European culture was deeply influenced by Turkish one (e.g. : the croissant), and it is under Turkish laws that in XV century in Bosnia was builded a multiethnic society.
Do you remember? In 1463 the Blagaj law was a guarantee for all the different religions in the Turkish empire, exactly the contrary of what happened in 1492 in Spain, when Jewish and Muslim people were expelled. This examples are for to say that Turkey is deeply connected to the European story, and if today , 23/01/2011 Turkey is not ready at all for Europe, we can't exclude that maybe in the future it will be.
Because Turkey is not simply Europe or simply Middle-East: it is both.


These are words well put.
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De-Ker
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Re: Turkey in Europe?

Postby De-Ker » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:32 pm

although claudio's things might be all true. I think it's actually completely irrelevant. I don't care about what happened in the past. What does count is the current state of a country. Otherwise, we can as well invite mongolia to join, since they've been in europe as well.
There are a few reasons why i think Turkey shouldn't join:

Cyprus: they should recognize it to the full extend, You cannot join if you don't recognize all the members

Armenian genocide: Ofcourse this is in theory not important for the EU per se, as Armenia is not part of it. But it says somthing about the affairs still going on in the country. I don't think we (i.e. EU) would except a county if that country would deny the (excuse me for the godwin): holocaust. It's unaccaptable.

The fact that Turkey has an predominant Islamic faith will dramatically influence daily European main values, and even if turkey says it will not, I don't think we should take the risk. Although turkey has on paper a boundary between faith and politics, we all know that it will influence general rules laws (as every faith has its influence on rules and laws). I have to say that Turkish people are on a reasonable good way to get adapted (at least here in NL). But it took already way too long, and if you compare it with let's say Chinese people there is still an awful long way to go. I am pro 'partial assimilation' and i don't think to big groups of any alien culture should be within a country, since it will slow down the process of adaptation. There are already millions of turks living in europe, with in contrary of many western cultures, insanly strong bonds to their home country. I don't mind if someone is very proud and bonded to its culture, but as soon as it influences dutch/european society it should be frowned upon.

Turkey has a minister for affairs with Turks in other country's. In my opinion this is complete and utter rubbish. A country should handle it own stuff and embassy affairs abroad. As long as turkey gives opinions and comments about dutch rules and laws, or any countries with turks living in them, conversations shouldn't even start yet.

Law 301, which prevents turks to be critical about their own country..Sounds as undemocratic and censorship to me

Turkey is to big (to much power) to instable and has to much people without a job.

I have to say that i wasn't in favor of the great adaptation of 10 countries (+bul and rom) a few years back. Some of them are just doing plain crap... We should even consider spliting the eurozone in my opinion. And although that's not the discussion here, i do want to say that we should first get healthy, and fix our own probs, before inviting new countries.

The only countries i think Europe should even consider at his point is Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. Although the first 2 are not going to happen in the near future.

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Re: Turkey in Europe?

Postby ART » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:12 pm

De-Ker wrote:There are a few reasons why i think Turkey shouldn't join:

Cyprus: they should recognize it to the full extend, You cannot join if you don't recognize all the members

Armenian genocide:


Cyprus, insufficient: the problem of the division must be resolved also.

At last the third important motivation, the relationships with Greece to normalize.
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Re: Turkey in Europe?

Postby De-Ker » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:50 am

kevinpeter123 wrote:Turkey’s president Abdullah Gul was in London this week. He picked up the prestigious Chatham House prize from the Queen and had talks with David Cameron. In between, he gave a couple of speeches about Islam, democracy and the world order and dropped in at the Financial Times.

Along the way Mr Gul posed a question that should make some Europeans feel uncomfortable. He asked them to think hard about what they really wanted from Turkey. Were they pleased to see it emerging as a strong, democratic and economically advanced nation with rising influence in its region?

He was too polite to spell out another possibility; that, after decades exhorting Turkey to embrace democratic norms and market capitalism, its neighbours are at best ambivalent about its progress. A rising Turkey, they are discovering, has its own point of view.


Offtopic. edit. for a moment i thought he wasn't a bot (because he posted a dotmap in the dutch forum) but after a second look it's clear he is.


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