Kyoto agreements

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Olivier
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Kyoto agreements

Post by Olivier » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:54 pm

Hello!

Could someone tell me why the USA have not ratified the protocol of Kyoto? There are officials in South-Africa, talking about the environment, but the american delegation has decided not to come :(

I don't understand why such an attitude... I hope it's not just because of economical interets! :evil:

Olivier

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Re: Kyoto agreements

Post by Craco » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:08 pm

Olivier wrote:Hello!

Could someone tell me why the USA have not ratified the protocol of Kyoto? There are officials in South-Africa, talking about the environment, but the american delegation has decided not to come :(

I don't understand why such an attitude... I hope it's not just because of economical interets! :evil:

Olivier
I don't know the finest details of it, but i think the decision had a rather economic reasoning. I believe Bush said something along the line of.. I can't sign a protocol which would put thousands of American Citizens without a job.. I'm not completely sure of this, i must say, so if somebody knows exactly, please add your comments...

Greetzz,

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Post by iveohc » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:25 pm

The reason simply is that they sign nothing that gives any control to international organisations, e.g. the International Court or other things[/b]

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Post by BossaNova » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:39 pm

and the economical argument is perfectly ridiculous.. because a modern economy must look at environment as an advantage and not as an obstacle...


the end of the american empire is going to be a lot sooner then many people would think and bet...

leting the ape george w. bush being the president (the second most voted candidate) is only rushing everything..

they already managed something impossible a few years ago, puting together all arab countries with one single purpose...


all empires have to dye some day, and this one made already enough evil..

atomic bomb, echelon, support of dictator regimes like Chile, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.. vietnam war etc etc etc etc etc etc ...

Hitler didn't have time to do half of it!

:evil: bn :twisted:

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Post by iveohc » Sat Aug 31, 2002 2:39 pm

BossaNova wrote:support of dictator regimes like Chile, Argentina, Saudi Arabia
Not to forget Iraq, Iran, bin Laden etc.

I wonder when they notice that interferring in sovereign countries can be a boomerang

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Post by Olivier » Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:16 pm

BossaNova wrote: atomic bomb, echelon, support of dictator regimes like Chile, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.. vietnam war etc etc etc etc etc etc ...

Hitler didn't have time to do half of it!

:evil: bn :twisted:
I don't agree with you, bn. Hitler was a dictator, and killed millions of people. It's not the same thing...

O.

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Post by Olivier » Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:17 pm

iveohc wrote:
BossaNova wrote:support of dictator regimes like Chile, Argentina, Saudi Arabia
Not to forget Iraq, Iran, bin Laden etc.

I wonder when they notice that interferring in sovereign countries can be a boomerang
They do now... they are hated all over the world.

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Post by BossaNova » Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:49 am

Olivier wrote:
BossaNova wrote: atomic bomb, echelon, support of dictator regimes like Chile, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.. vietnam war etc etc etc etc etc etc ...

Hitler didn't have time to do half of it!

:evil: bn :twisted:
I don't agree with you, bn. Hitler was a dictator, and killed millions of people. It's not the same thing...

O.
I think the only difference is that Hitler was one guy, with a face and an (stupid) ideology, while the us is controlled by big companies without a face, without any other goal then make more money, and killing a lot more people worldwide.

sorry to disagree but it's really like that that I see all this..

just another not very known example, East-Timor was invaded by Indonesia in 1975 with total support of US, probably more then support, the american president of the time visited Jakarta few days before the invasion that killed more then 300.000 timoreses... in a country so small, the impact of this deaths was a lot bigger then the terrible Holocaust in Germany, there isn't a single timorese family that doesn't have a few members killed by indonesians allways with the american cumplicity...


but this is just a small and distant example... american victims are every where..

but don't take me wrong I never confund the American politcs with the American People.. I hate all the prejudices..

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Post by Olivier » Thu Sep 05, 2002 11:20 am

BossaNova wrote: I think the only difference is that Hitler was one guy, with a face and an (stupid) ideology, while the us is controlled by big companies without a face, without any other goal then make more money, and killing a lot more people worldwide.

sorry to disagree but it's really like that that I see all this..
BN, you can't tell this, this is simply false to compare the fascist regime of the Nazis and the american foreign policy ! The historian that I am can't agree with you!!

1st, Hitler was not "one guy". Remember the role of the nazis in all the german society, the organization for the camps, the policy of the Final Solution... Hitler had generals, politicians, a heir (First Goebbels, and then Rudolph Hess)...
2nd, the german companies helped the nazis, and for some, used some people in the camps to test their products. The banks were very active, not only in Germany but also in Switzerland...

Anyway, you can't compare two different situations at two different periods. Why shouldn't we say the trade of the slaves by Portugal, Spain, France, England, the NL, Denmark... was like the nazis. It's nonsense to compare the centuries, the situations.

I agree with you that the current american policy is not altruist and that there have been thousands of victims of its policy. I agree that the situation you mention, but also in Cuba, in Chile, in south america, in the middle east is bad because of the US politics. But you can't compare East-Timor to the Holocaust.

Unfortunately, there are other situations which can be compared to the Holocaust: Cambodia, Armenia, Rwanda...

<there isn't a single timorese family that doesn't have a few members killed by indonesians allways with the american cumplicity...
Like the 1st world war in France, with 1,5 millions of death.

<<but don't take me wrong I never confund the American politcs with the American People.. I hate all the prejudices..

So, what should Europe do to oppose to this?

O.

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Post by BossaNova » Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:56 pm

Olivier wrote:
I agree with you that the current american policy is not altruist and that there have been thousands of victims of its policy. I agree that the situation you mention, but also in Cuba, in Chile, in south america, in the middle east is bad because of the US politics. But you can't compare East-Timor to the Holocaust.

Unfortunately, there are other situations which can be compared to the Holocaust: Cambodia, Armenia, Rwanda...

<there isn't a single timorese family that doesn't have a few members killed by indonesians allways with the american cumplicity...
Like the 1st world war in France, with 1,5 millions of death.

<<but don't take me wrong I never confund the American politcs with the American People.. I hate all the prejudices..

So, what should Europe do to oppose to this?

O.
ok.. well I agree that maybe the comparision is a litle exagerated..

although if you agree that there was an holocaust in Rwanda, you must agree there was another one in East-Timor...

...

but this exagerations of mine are probably due to the silent that surrounds all this arrogance, human rights violations.. etc of the US foreign policy..

who's the biggest enemy of the International Criminal Tribunal? why?

how can they say they're the biggest defenders of human rights, and that's because of that they want to attack Irak.. and at the same time they, Israel and all the dictatorships of the world are against the Tribunal...?

Irak as mass destruction weapons? and the us?????? a lot more, and they used them already.. Irak never.. why are the US trustful? and Irak don't? because all the wars they made, or because their elections are free and fair???


what should Europe do? at least something.. leave NATO, is stupid that NATO still exists after the attack to Yougoslavia.. an european country that was attacked by an outsider with the support of all Europe...

where's the union on europe? where's the european spirit?

why is Tony Blair trying to speak in the name of all Europe, and only Schroeder tryed to shut his mouth?????

it is time already to forget the traumas of II world war, and tell those guys they're wrong and we are not going to help them...


Israel destroys buildings payed by european union, with palestinian civilians inside, and nothing happens.!!!!!.. because millions of jews died in the IIWW we are only going to do something when an equal number of palestinians is dead?????..

I really hate hipocrisy... :evil:

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Post by emmem » Sat Sep 07, 2002 6:03 pm

BossaNova wrote:
why is Tony Blair trying to speak in the name of all Europe, and only Schroeder tryed to shut his mouth?????
Yes, this is something I wonder. His country hasn’t even adopted the Euro. IMHO his speeches make the UK go further away from what the rest of the Union thinks.
BossaNova wrote:
it is time already to forget the traumas of II world war, and tell those guys they're wrong and we are not going to help them...

Israel destroys buildings payed by european union, with palestinian civilians inside, and nothing happens.!!!!!.. because millions of jews died in the IIWW we are only going to do something when an equal number of palestinians is dead?????..

I really hate hipocrisy... :evil:
When I was a kid, we played a game that was called Cowboy and Indian. I guess kids of the future will play a similar game called Israeli and Palestinian. The only difference is that bows and arrows of the Indians are replaced by small rifles and bombs, and the rifles of the Cowboys by tanks and missiles.

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Post by Skylimit » Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:00 am

emmem wrote: Yes, this is something I wonder. His country hasn&#8217;t even adopted the Euro. IMHO his speeches make the UK go further away from what the rest of the Union thinks.
I too feel that Europe should speak with one voice. There can still be debate, but it really hurts the union to see that UK decides on its own to team up with the USA to invade Irak, while other members are against.

I'm also a bit disappointed in our neighbours from the Netherlands. Is this the Fortuyn effect we are spotting here ?
Time is on our side ...

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Post by iveohc » Sun Sep 08, 2002 2:21 pm

BossaNova wrote:why is Tony Blair trying to speak in the name of all Europe, and only Schroeder tryed to shut his mouth?????
Your right on this, but don't count on Schröder. You should always keep in mind that there are Bundestag elections on 22th September and Schröder tries to catch some votes.

Leading politicians of his SPD party revoked parts of what he said. Some time ago it seemed that both chanellor candidats ware completely against a war against iraq, no it seems that Germany would agree on a war if it's aimed to let the UN-inspections into the country :?

I think in the next time, we will again see the glorious EU foreign policy: Blair says something, Chirac says something different, Schröder (oder Stoiber), too. Then there's Berlusconi who says something very extreme and all the other heads of government say something nobody cares about, Solana says nothing and finally the US do what they want..... :(

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Post by Olivier » Sun Sep 08, 2002 7:11 pm

BossaNova wrote: but this exagerations of mine are probably due to the silent that surrounds all this arrogance, human rights violations.. etc of the US foreign policy..
The silence is not so clear in France. That's why the Americans can't stand the French foreign policy. For most of the Americans, all the cliches are strong: we are arrogant, dirty, don't like the jews and the americans... :!:
Some of this critics against France occured when France asked for the respect of the UN resolution in the Middle East.

The most strange of the relationship between the USA and France is that this criticism has always existed (for centuries!), but France is the only important country which has never had a war with the USA. Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany... all these countries (very Atlantic) had a war against the USA.

<<
how can they say they're the biggest defenders of human rights, and that's because of that they want to attack Irak.. and at the same time they, Israel and all the dictatorships of the world are against the Tribunal...?
>>
I'd like Europe to tell that louder.

<<<
Irak as mass destruction weapons? and the us?????? a lot more, and they used them already.. Irak never..
>>
Saddam used them against his own population!!! He killed thousands of Kurds!!
The USA are a democracy. Irak is not.

<<
what should Europe do? at least something.. leave NATO, is stupid that NATO still exists after the attack to Yougoslavia.. an european country that was attacked by an outsider with the support of all Europe...>>

I don't agree! I am sure smh-sander will not neither. :-)

<< where's the union on europe? where's the european spirit?
I don't know. :-( I regret that lack.
I would like to hear more declarations of Romano Prodi.

<<
Israel destroys buildings payed by european union, with palestinian civilians inside, and nothing happens.!!!!!..
>>
I know, and I regret that no economical sanctions have been taken!
Though I don't agree with the parallel you make between the jews dead in the WWII and the Palestinians.

O.

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Post by Olivier » Sun Sep 08, 2002 7:13 pm

emmem wrote:
BossaNova wrote:
why is Tony Blair trying to speak in the name of all Europe, and only Schroeder tryed to shut his mouth?????
Yes, this is something I wonder. His country hasn’t even adopted the Euro. IMHO his speeches make the UK go further away from what the rest of the Union thinks.
Yes, it's more and more visible...

O.

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