Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

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Burdie
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Burdie » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:53 pm

vermeer wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:31 pm
Posbank = Rheden

https://nl.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=187079615
Bedankt, Iemand had hem al geplaatst bij Rheden, maar ik heb even de coördinaten erbij gezet. Het is nog een flink endje lopen vanaf het centrum :-)
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:39 pm

Municipality: Kitee Post code: 59800 seems to go in the wrong dot (ie. the center of Kitee).

In reality it should go to the same dot as Kesälahti some 30km south of Kitee's center. The notes where actually gotten from Kesälahti as the comment suggests, but Kesälahti has been a part of Kitee's municipality since 2013. I guess that no one else has used the correct municipality/post code since.

Please fix so I can get a new dot. :)

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Burdie » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:57 am

Petri6 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:39 pm
Municipality: Kitee Post code: 59800 seems to go in the wrong dot (ie. the center of Kitee).

In reality it should go to the same dot as Kesälahti some 30km south of Kitee's center. The notes where actually gotten from Kesälahti as the comment suggests, but Kesälahti has been a part of Kitee's municipality since 2013. I guess that no one else has used the correct municipality/post code since.

Please fix so I can get a new dot. :)
For the moment I leave it like it is, but I am open for suggestions.
These are my finds:
Google map gives me for Kitee 59800 these coördinates: 61.91937, 29.84371 and with the description of 59800 Kesälahti, Finland and brings us a little bit above Kesälahti
Since 16-6-2013 there are 184 notes entered on 59800 Kitee
Wikipedia says: Kesälahti is a former municipality of Finland. It was consolidated with Kitee on 1 January 2013.
but also:¨but is today referred to as "Kesälahti" also in Swedish¨

What can we do:
Leave it like it is (Not a good option) or
enter the coordinates as above or
Move Kitee 59800 to the "Kesälahti" cityprofile because it is still known under that name.

The best option is leave it to the ´Finnisch City Manager´ but for the moment there is no one for that. ¿Any Volunteers?
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:00 am

Burdie wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:57 am
Petri6 wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:39 pm
Municipality: Kitee Post code: 59800 seems to go in the wrong dot (ie. the center of Kitee).

In reality it should go to the same dot as Kesälahti some 30km south of Kitee's center. The notes where actually gotten from Kesälahti as the comment suggests, but Kesälahti has been a part of Kitee's municipality since 2013. I guess that no one else has used the correct municipality/post code since.

Please fix so I can get a new dot. :)
For the moment I leave it like it is, but I am open for suggestions.
These are my finds:
Google map gives me for Kitee 59800 these coördinates: 61.91937, 29.84371 and with the description of 59800 Kesälahti, Finland and brings us a little bit above Kesälahti
Since 16-6-2013 there are 184 notes entered on 59800 Kitee
Wikipedia says: Kesälahti is a former municipality of Finland. It was consolidated with Kitee on 1 January 2013.
but also:¨but is today referred to as "Kesälahti" also in Swedish¨

What can we do:
Leave it like it is (Not a good option) or
enter the coordinates as above or
Move Kitee 59800 to the "Kesälahti" cityprofile because it is still known under that name.

The best option is leave it to the ´Finnisch City Manager´ but for the moment there is no one for that. ¿Any Volunteers?
If you write 59800 Kesälahti on Googlemaps, you see the area that that post code covers (from previous experience I know that google is pretty accurate with them) and the coordinates you suggest seem to be pretty much in the center of that area. Therefore I would suggest to use those coordinates for 59800 Kitee.

To clarify a little bit about the situation, as of 1.1.2013 there is no such municipality as Kesälahti anymore so from that point forward no one should enter notes there anymore and all the notes should be entered with Kitee as municipality. However, even though there is no such municipality anymore, residents of Kesälahti (who became members of the municipality of Kitee 1.1.2013) still maintained their previous address. So the postal address would be: Example Street 1, 59800 Kesälahti.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by groentje » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:08 am

In some countries, Kesälahti would be used in most mail adresses, but merged automatically under Kitee for EBT (except in the NL and B, where we are very keen about our very specific villages, even if they fall under a larger municipality :mrgreen: )

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:39 am

groentje wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:08 am
In some countries, Kesälahti would be used in most mail adresses, but merged automatically under Kitee for EBT (except in the NL and B, where we are very keen about our very specific villages, even if they fall under a larger municipality :mrgreen: )
I know, we had the same debate in Finland years ago, because previously the word "paikkakunta" (roughly translated "locality") was used in the note entry form instead of "kunta" (municipality) and therefore some trackers where of the opinion that notes should be entered using postal locations instead of municipalities even though some postal locations only include one farmer plus a couple of his relatives. :D Parts of some postal locations can also belong to multiple different municipalities (hence I've notes and hits entered both from 20540 Turku and 20540 Kaarina).

In this case, though, since until 1.1.2013 Kesälahti was its own municipality and notes entered there were entered correctly, I think that the two should not be merged and the correct solution is just to plot the same coordinates for 59800 Kesälahti and 59800 Kitee but not merge the profiles.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by lmviterbo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:00 am

groentje wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:08 am
[…] except in the NL and B, where we are very keen about our very specific villages, even if they fall under a larger municipality […]
PT too! :roll:

In fact, precisely because our own "localidades" (probably the same as the Finnish "paikkakunat") are the atoms of PT "cities" database (and not municipalities, as for other countries), our city managers are still having trouble correcting wrong assignments made by foreign city managers.

Our rules for Portugal are very clear and follow very strictly the general EBT rule "city name before postal code". So, if this was Portugal, Kesälahti (59800) would now be a child of Kesälahti, and manually plotted exactly where it is, and Kitee (59800) would be placed under Kitee but not geographically located (because we don't locate wrong localities / child-profiles). Being in Finland, it has to follow the established Finnish rules, whichever they are. If there are no strict rules, they should be discussed and set.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Burdie » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:03 pm

For Kitee 59800 I have entered the coordinates 61.91937, 29.84371

What I understand is that both 59800 Kitee and 59800 Kesälahti is used for the same spot / place
For now one is going in the profile of Kitee and the other one is going in the profile of Kesälahti

I am afraid there are more profiles like this in Finland.
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by lmviterbo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:24 pm

Burdie wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:03 pm
For now one is going in the profile of Kitee and the other one is going in the profile of Kesälahti
Again, this is exactly how it should be if this was in Portugal. And, unless rules are clear and against the general rule "city first", this is also how it should be everywhere. One of them (the wrong one) shouldn't be assigned coordinates (that is, the coordinates should remain the average of locations under the same city) — this is the only way for someone to complain about their dots and fix their own mistake after being told that the city is wrong.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:07 pm

Burdie wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:03 pm
For Kitee 59800 I have entered the coordinates 61.91937, 29.84371

What I understand is that both 59800 Kitee and 59800 Kesälahti is used for the same spot / place
For now one is going in the profile of Kitee and the other one is going in the profile of Kesälahti

I am afraid there are more profiles like this in Finland.
Thank you kindly. :)

Yes, there are a lot of places like this and it's the result of municipalities joining together (and some users persisting to enter notes with the wrong location name). When the use of Euro started in Finland in 2002 we had 448 municipalities, in 2018 we only have 311 municipalities remaining.

This drastic drop in municipalities is one of the reasons that some users are persisting with using the postal locations instead of municipalities when they enter notes (even though this is clearly against the rules nowadays). Other reason might just be laziness because when using a postal location don't have to find out which municipality it belongs to. Sometimes, when a postal location belongs to different municipalities, the question of correct municipality can be hard to determine and some times the user might not be aware that the location in the receipt is a postal location and not in fact the name of the municipality.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Burdie » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:43 pm

Petri6 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:07 pm

This drastic drop in municipalities is one of the reasons that some users are persisting with using the postal locations instead of municipalities when they enter notes (even though this is clearly against the rules nowadays). Other reason might just be laziness because when using a postal location don't have to find out which municipality it belongs to. Sometimes, when a postal location belongs to different municipalities, the question of correct municipality can be hard to determine and some times the user might not be aware that the location in the receipt is a postal location and not in fact the name of the municipality.
In the Netherlands we dropped from 537 municipalities in 2000 to 380 (+3) municipalities now and there is no problem in EBT.
The reason for that is: The Netherlands is divided in EBT by: Provinces and Municipalities
Finland is divided in EBT by: Regions and Sub-regions

Municipalities merge every year in the Netherlands. Only one person had to correct this for the Netherlands in EBT to correct this
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:37 pm

Burdie wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:43 pm
Petri6 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:07 pm

This drastic drop in municipalities is one of the reasons that some users are persisting with using the postal locations instead of municipalities when they enter notes (even though this is clearly against the rules nowadays). Other reason might just be laziness because when using a postal location don't have to find out which municipality it belongs to. Sometimes, when a postal location belongs to different municipalities, the question of correct municipality can be hard to determine and some times the user might not be aware that the location in the receipt is a postal location and not in fact the name of the municipality.
In the Netherlands we dropped from 537 municipalities in 2000 to 380 (+3) municipalities now and there is no problem in EBT.
The reason for that is: The Netherlands is divided in EBT by: Provinces and Municipalities
Finland is divided in EBT by: Regions and Sub-regions

Municipalities merge every year in the Netherlands. Only one person had to correct this for the Netherlands in EBT to correct this
I don't understand your post at all. I switched to an English version of EBT to try to get some sense. It seems that Netherland is divided in EBT as follows: Provinces ("provincies" 13 in EBT) -> Municipalities ("gemeenten" 383 in EBT) -> Cities ("Stedeen" 2941 in EBT).

Finland on the other hand is divided into Regions ("Maakunta" 19 both in EBT and IRL) -> Sub-regions ("Seutukunta" 71 in EBT and Nowadays 70 IRL) -> Cities but the correct translation would be municipalities ("Kunta" 2416 in EBT but only 311 in IRL and has only ever been 448 IRL since 2002).

So as you can see we are talking about a totally different thing since in the Netherlands you seem to miss completely the level between Provinces and Municipalities and I would imagine at least partly therefore use a place smaller than a municipality for note registering purposes. In Finland however municipality is not the second smallest but the smallest location (that should be used) for EBT purposes and locations smaller are only identified by post code + possible comment.

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by negative » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:13 pm

missing dots for:

Wroclaw :flag-pl:
https://lt.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=187025532
51.121365, 17.015632


Wroclaw :flag-pl:
https://lt.eurobilltracker.com/notes/?id=187025520
51.122106, 16.989711

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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Burdie » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:32 pm

Petri6 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:37 pm
So as you can see we are talking about a totally different thing since in the Netherlands you seem to miss completely the level between Provinces and Municipalities and I would imagine at least partly therefore use a place smaller than a municipality for note registering purposes. In Finland however municipality is not the second smallest but the smallest location (that should be used) for EBT purposes and locations smaller are only identified by post code + possible comment.
I don´t know what the situation is in Finland. I know what the situation is in the Netherlands. That is the reason that I gave The Netherlands as an example, to show that there are no problems in the Netherlands.

We are all depending how people are entering the notes. The fact that there are 2416 ¨Kunta´s¨ in EBT is a prove that people are entering notes in smaller locations names than the Municipalities.

This all proofs that we need a Finnish City Manager

BTW what has IRL (Ireland) to do with this all :wink:
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Re: Incorrect dots and inaccuracies among city profiles

Post by Petri6 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:15 pm

Burdie wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:32 pm
Petri6 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:37 pm
So as you can see we are talking about a totally different thing since in the Netherlands you seem to miss completely the level between Provinces and Municipalities and I would imagine at least partly therefore use a place smaller than a municipality for note registering purposes. In Finland however municipality is not the second smallest but the smallest location (that should be used) for EBT purposes and locations smaller are only identified by post code + possible comment.
I don´t know what the situation is in Finland. I know what the situation is in the Netherlands. That is the reason that I gave The Netherlands as an example, to show that there are no problems in the Netherlands.

We are all depending how people are entering the notes. The fact that there are 2416 ¨Kunta´s¨ in EBT is a prove that people are entering notes in smaller locations names than the Municipalities.

This all proofs that we need a Finnish City Manager

BTW what has IRL (Ireland) to do with this all :wink:
IRL=In real life. :)

So you are saying that you have no problem at all with Cities ("Steden") in the Netherlands? Because it seems that you have even more of them entered into EBT as we have "Kunta"'s. Also, from what I gather from wikipedia, they are not officially controlled in any way as opposed to municipalities (both in Finland and in the Netherlands). So if the situation is such that anybody can decide for themselves what is a "Stede" and what is not, then I imagine that there are no problems. :)

Also we have no problems with Sub-Regions ("Seutukunnat") as well which in this comparison compares to municipalities in the Netherlands when it comes to EBT (and is the reason why this comparison doesn't work).

Also, as I explained previously, the postal code areas in Finland can belong to many different municipalities at the same time, so if someone enters a note with using a postal code area as a location, we could never be a 100 % sure to which municipality we should merge it with. And also, as I explained previously, when it comes to municipalities that have joined together after 2002, it would be wrong to merge them with the new municipalities because up until the creation of the new municipalities, those notes were entered correctly. Also one of the big reasons why we don't merge notes entered with the postal location to corresponding municipalities is that some heavyweight users (who have entered more than 100 000 notes) still persist that their way of entering notes with the postal code location is correct, so if we would start to merge their entries with municipalities we could risking losing them as EBT-members altogether.

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