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Euro tracking discussion in English

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ErGo
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Post by ErGo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:54 am

Zjonbelz wrote:Can somebody copy and past this message here ...
I don't know if this is allowed, because he wrote this thing so it is his property :wink:

Ok here it come:
Giro wrote: A few words about the defacing the site is being put through at the moment.

How I created the site
I created Eurobilltracker 6 years ago : I created the look & feel, I created the code, I created the database, I bought the domain name and I hosted the service.

From the start, I made it a "user-generated content" site like youtube, myspace, etc : people helped moderate, answer support requests, helped locate cities, etc. From the start, I gave it the focus on statistics that it still has today.

That is why, the site came out the clear winner among the 7 euro bill tracking sites that opened at the start of 2002. The spirit of the site has lived on since then.

Anssi and Marko volunteer to help
A few years down the road, Anssi J. (Avij) offered to host the website on a server he owned and operated. I accepted under those terms because he was already an active member of the community and had thus gained my trust. Anssi made sure the servers ran, corrected bugs here and there, answered emails, etc.
Fast-forward to 2005, Marko S. (Nerzhul), the creator of EBT Tool, wanted to contribute to the code to add even more stats to the site.
Anssi asked for my permission, I agreed.

From then on, things went downward

* I discovered that I was not being consulted for additional features, changes to the site design and the database
* A parallel governance that did not include me or the channels I had created, was put in place that focused around Anssi and Marko
* upgrades I wanted to make to the site were being dismissed as not important or problematic (especially a much needed redesign)
* I was to follow unspecified rules some of which were never explained even when I asked.

To put it simply : they could do without me.

But what really got to me was to have an upgrade I made to Babel removed without discussion : it was then I really realized that Anssi and Marko acted as though they embodied the site and owned it.

Safegarding Eurobilltracker

From then on, my focus has been on safeguarding the site from them and the way to do so was to simply move the site to new hosting while providing exactly the same service to everyone with absolutely no changes. The switch was made on Dec 24th with links to the forum and the WAP site unchanged, the passwords to the administration sections were changed so I could monitor the site the first day. I notified Marko and Anssi and asked for information to complete the switch cleanly.

The next day, the forum was hijacked to a new domain owned by Anssi, eurobilltracker was running on another domain owned by Anssi and an incensed message was posted by Marko to the Annoucement board, calling for people to deface the site. This is a called a coup d’état since the rightfull owner of the Forum domain has now totally lost control.


Anssi and Marko call for defacing the site

So people have been creative at defacing the site but with no real damage : changing their countries, adding comments to bills, changing the names, adding fake bills, fake cities, etc. I have implemented a restrained response: first cleaning the mess, then blocking some keywords and finally blocking accounts. Unfortunately this is continuing so I am now banning computers. I will continue to do so as long as this is necessary, "user-generated content" is a double-edged sword ! One day I’ll post the screen shots and we’ll all laugh at how childish it was.


A new beginning

I lay no claim to the WAP site and I lay no claim to the Forum. I am appalled at the tactics used by these people. Eurobilltracker will survive as it has when it faced similar attacks from disgruntled competitors in 2002. I look forward to adding features in the upcoming months.

I will simply end with a question. Do you want to give your time to a site run by people who:

* openly violate someone’s intellectual property (my site design)
* steal someone’s property (site database)
* knowingly violating the license of software they use (Babel is GPL and they did not contribute their changes back)
* have no respect for people who create things from scratch
* portray people they don’t know as "greedy businessmen"
* advocate defacing another site and do so themselves


I am a man of peace, if you have been duped to attack Eurobilltracker by these people; stop and I'll restore your access to the site. Let's keep this site a fun place for everyone.
If you disagree with these tactics, let people know.

Philippe Girolami
Creator of Eurobilltracker
2007-12-26

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jovada
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Re: Pillippe about defacing the .com site

Post by jovada » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:01 pm

tigerpranke wrote:double post, deleted
LOL, we've both deleted our posts :)

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Zjonbelz
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Post by Zjonbelz » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:02 pm

Giro wrote:I will simply end with a question. Do you want to give your time to a site run by people who:

(...)
* steal someone’s property (site database)
(...)
Hmmm.... isn't that just what Giro did to us; he stole my note database and is denying me access to my own data...

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Post by ErGo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:07 pm

Giro wrote:* advocate defacing another site and do so themselves
And just for the records:
avij and Nerzhul never set any action which approve defacing. Both are trying to calm down the situation!

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Post by -STAR- » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:15 pm

Giro wrote:* advocate defacing another site and do so themselves
Au contrair, Monsieur!
ErGo wrote:avij and Nerzhul never set any action which approve defacing. Both are trying to calm down the situation!
Even more, Nerzhul asked the community on several occasions to not enter any fake notes to the .com site.
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Post by GP » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:23 pm

And people who still play .com don't know the other side of the story so they believe the story from Giro.. :(

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jovada
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Post by jovada » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:18 pm

GP wrote:And people who still play .com don't know the other side of the story so they believe the story from Giro.. :(
And that's why I fear that this will be the end of EBT. There will never be one consistent EBT database again, it will be scattered over .com and .eu.
I'd like to repeat that Harry Potter statement that someone made :-)

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mike.foxtrot
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Post by mike.foxtrot » Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:41 pm

My personal and humble opinion, for what is worth...

I've read both the news from the "Empire" and the "Alliance": for what I can read, they both make sense.

As it is, ".com" is a commercial suffix, owned and run by someone, which has full power over it. Like it or not: HE is the owner, HE makes the rules. So it's up to you: stay with HIM at HIS rules or go somewhere else.

This is a sort of maximalist approach; anyway the internet has never been a fully democratic place... :wink:

As it is, ".eu" people is a little bit too frantic right now... For what I can remember about copyright, too look-a-like sites usually mean infringements of someone's rights... And also "Hit Bombing" isn't a very effective way to help fix things diplomatically... I agree on the "Moral Primacy" of ".eu", due to the great effort over the years; still I'm afraid that property laws still apply?

I'd suggest to take advantage of the situation to straight things up a little: what about going for a GPL-GNU statute (maybe something Wikipedia like) to definite and fix bases of an actual free EBT?

So, let's go for a policy, statute and domain that is totally user driven...
http://mikefoxtrot.altervista.org

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Post by ErGo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:11 pm

tinka wrote:try google and enter : eurobilltracker
There eu stands first in line and anybody can place a link to domainshift :wink:
Not any more ?!?! Is the adword-entry canceled?

I think its important to change all (old) .com-Links as far as possible to .eu-URL, so the new site climbs up to the first position!!!

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Post by avij » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:19 pm

ErGo wrote:
tinka wrote:try google and enter : eurobilltracker
There eu stands first in line and anybody can place a link to domainshift :wink:
Not any more ?!?! Is the adword-entry canceled?
Oh, they're still active, no worries. Google may occassionally limit the number of times an ad is shown due to daily budget constraints. I've now raised the daily budget a bit so it should be visible more often.
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Post by claudio vda » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:24 pm

avij wrote:Oh, they're still active, no worries. Google may occassionally limit the number of times an ad is shown due to daily budget constraints. I've now raised the daily budget a bit so it should be visible more often.
Yes, but the existence of 2 EBT sites can't be a solution as 2 Korea or 2 Germany: if in about a week a solution will not be founded, I am afraid that for EBT will be the death :cry:

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Post by ErGo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:39 pm

claudio vda wrote:Yes, but the existence of 2 EBT sites can't be a solution as 2 Korea or 2 Germany: if in about a week a solution will not be founded, I am afraid that for EBT will be the death :cry:
It will be a set-back, but as Giro wrote, it was the community which makes the site to a sucess.
Giro wrote: ... I lay no claim to the Forum ...
And as long as on .com is no forum there will be no community.

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Post by jovada » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:45 pm

ErGo wrote:I think its important to change all (old) .com-Links as far as possible to .eu-URL, so the new site climbs up to the first position!!!
Exactly: Google partly determines the popularity of site by the number of inbound links. I've changed all instances of ebt.com into ebt.eu on my weblog and I suggest everyone starts thinking about where the old URL still may be in a forum signature, on a website,...

Mkay

...

Post by Mkay » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:48 pm

Can someone explain why the .com version is commercial?

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Re: ...

Post by jovada » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:52 pm

Mkay wrote:Can someone explain why the .com version is commercial?
http://forum.eurobilltracker.eu/viewtop ... 751#497751

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