"Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by melitikus » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:23 pm

androl wrote:so the raised ink lines are the only new security feature officially announced today? I have thought there would be more. In some of the videos, you see some more new UV features, though, like tri-colour UV fibres or different colour in UVC light.

They made videos from a French printer, so I think these several different U/U serials are still French notes, and I've seen a V/V note and a Z printercode. The new notes have been printed by BE, ES, FR, IT, AT, which will fit. This would mean, the printer letters are changed or replaced by the country letters!? So how will notes from Oberthur (E) or Giesecke (P) then be distinguishable from Banque de France and Bundesdruckerei notes?

The second letter seems just a replacement for the first digit, so there will now be 23 billion free numbers per country instead of 10 billion. For the checksum, it's still the same, with A=2 (or 11, or 65 as you wish), B=3 ... U=22 or 4, Z=27 or 0

The shown U/U notes have the "Austrian" plate style, with
UA0 = U00xA1 (like N10)
UA1 = U00xB1 (like N11)
...
UA9 = U00xJ1
UB0 = U00xA2 (like N20)
...
UF9 = U00xJ6 (like N69)

Reggae fans look out for U00xE2 notes 8)
melitikus wrote:regarding having a national part on the banknotes - i do not agree. If they do that it would be difficult for citizens to know if the banknote is genuine or not
I still cannot follow this argument. We're not talking of national security features. A citicen won't have to worry about not finding out that a faker drew Pinocchio on the note instead of Mona Lisa. National designs are not security features!
that would mean 17countries x 7 banknotes = 119 different banknotes circulating all over the eurozone, even if we have common security features some people would feel not that familiar with some of the variant notes and thus would make it easier for counterfeiters to put fake notes in circulation. Also when we get a banknote we instinctively check if it is genuine or not in a split of a second - having variants would take much longer and people would feel less confident
Last edited by melitikus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by tabbs » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:26 pm

androl wrote:so the raised ink lines are the only new security feature officially announced today? I have thought there would be more. In some of the videos, you see some more new UV features, though, like tri-colour UV fibres or different colour in UVC light.
Have a look here, for example:
http://www.new-euro-banknotes.eu/Euro-b ... uperimpose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As for the videos that you mentioned, a "package" with MP4 video files (zip, about 350 MB) about the new features can be downloaded here:
http://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/tvservic ... ootage.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We're not talking of national security features. A citicen won't have to worry about not finding out that a faker drew Pinocchio on the note instead of Mona Lisa. National designs are not security features!
In a way they are. Keep in mind that, unlike the euro coins, those notes will make it to banks and exchange places all over the world. Frankly, I think it would be strange to have twenty or so varieties of each denomination only because some people like "national identity features" so much ...

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by androl » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:52 pm

melitikus wrote:even if we have common security features some people would feel not that familiar with some of the variant notes and thus would make it easier for counterfeiters to put fake notes in circulation.
I think it depends much on how much the "national" designs will change the overall look. If there could be national designs at all, I think it would only be possible to have a small area which does not include any specific security feature, except, say, UV visible or raised ink, which would be checkable regardless of the design. If everything around that national area is the same on every variant, I think people could well learn that to check a note to be genuine, they don't need to watch the "national area" and concentrate on the rest of the note, as if the national area was not there.
In the same way as you could see that a 2 euro coin has a wrong colour, regardless of the design of the coin.
If the security features were moved to different places in different countries for example, or if the overall colours were different due to the national designs, this would irritate people so they need longer to check a note.
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by melitikus » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:30 am

androl wrote:
melitikus wrote:even if we have common security features some people would feel not that familiar with some of the variant notes and thus would make it easier for counterfeiters to put fake notes in circulation.
I think it depends much on how much the "national" designs will change the overall look. If there could be national designs at all, I think it would only be possible to have a small area which does not include any specific security feature, except, say, UV visible or raised ink, which would be checkable regardless of the design. If everything around that national area is the same on every variant, I think people could well learn that to check a note to be genuine, they don't need to watch the "national area" and concentrate on the rest of the note, as if the national area was not there.
In the same way as you could see that a 2 euro coin has a wrong colour, regardless of the design of the coin.
If the security features were moved to different places in different countries for example, or if the overall colours were different due to the national designs, this would irritate people so they need longer to check a note.
before euro banknotes were introduced there was this idea of having national features but later on it was decided to go for a common design - probably the EU did a scientific research about this. Also probably it would be very difficult and time consuming for the designer to incorporate over 180 designs while keeping lot of the features common. For coins it is easier as you get an entire side. Also banknotes unlike coins are not a national competence.

I look at the euro cash as a whole - we have the coins with a national side and I believe that this is enough. Like tabs indicated unlike coins, euro banknotes are also used around the world and most of the people might not be so familiar with these notes and I am sure it would cause confusion

from a numismatic perspective - not many collectors are interested in banknotes especially the high denomination ones - as they are just too expensive

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:15 pm

Androl took my basic idea. I do not mean to make different notes. I wrote "one quarter of the area", let's make it even smaller. There's a lot of banknote area without any safety features. The "national" design could be virtually anything, but 100% of one side and 75%-to-90% of the other would be the same, including the safety measures. I do not think this means a headache for anybody. Even the "national part" of the design could be printed in UV ink. But emerald printing, watermark, raised ink, hologram, etc., etc., would make the whole banknote a safe piece and would be equal for all countries except for a samll part of a design. I do not see a problem on it. But, hey: can I do anything on banknote designs? We will have to deal will what ECB offers to us.

My basic point was "disappoint". On the "new" desing, I mean.

Happy new year again to everybody!!

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by ART » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:49 pm

Something doesn't work on the map.

You immediately notice the expansion of the map that has been stretched to the east so you get to include Cyprus, and to the south of Sicily was put a dot representing Malta. In the little lateral trapezoids that shows the profiles of the European dependencies part of EU are obviously left the French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique and Reunion... but lacks Mayotte, which in 2011 changed its status from Territorial collectivity in Overseas department, then becoming France / EU all effects.
And logically in my opinion should be also put the three islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba, Special overseas municipality of the Netherlands that after the dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles in 2010 became part of the territory of the Netherlands.
JordiJanTaxi wrote: What a disappointment! The bill is the same. Yes: more languages, Europa face and new emerald print. But same designs, same schemes.
Oh... what a surprise! Image
The ECB had specified from ages that the new notes would keep the same graphic subjects.
JordiJanTaxi wrote:I have always imagined even "national" banknotes, where, for example, one quarter could have different representations of different countries, although 75% or more of the paper surface would be same for all of them.
Again, European "innovation" is not innovative, nor imaginative, but serious and boring (and silly?) as usual.
Nationalist temptations are boring and silly (and dangerous) as usual. Luckily, this idea was abandoned almost immediately.
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by Mkay » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:47 pm

And logically in my opinion should be also put the three islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba, Special overseas municipality of the Netherlands that after the dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles in 2010 became part of the territory .
But those islands use the US Dollar as their official currency, so displaying them on the euro bills doesn't seem very logical to me.

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by ART » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:37 am

They use the US dollar but the map show the official EU membership, regardless the used currency.
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by androl » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:05 am

for the first map, the cutoff for small islands was 500 km² IIRC. For Malta, they had to make an exception, obviously because it is an entire country, but Mayotte (which is in fact larger than Malta (363 km² (Grande-Terre) vs. 316 km² (all Malta) or 246 km² (Malta (island)))) and the "special municipalities" of the Netherlands are just small islands

by the way, there's still some time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayotte wrote:Mayotte became an overseas department on 31 March 2011 and will become an Outermost region of the European Union on 1 January 2014.
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by Jes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:06 am

ART wrote: Oh... what a surprise! Image
The ECB had specified from ages that the new notes would keep the same graphic subjects.
JordiJanTaxi wrote:I have always imagined even "national" banknotes, where, for example, one quarter could have different representations of different countries, although 75% or more of the paper surface would be same for all of them.
Again, European "innovation" is not innovative, nor imaginative, but serious and boring (and silly?) as usual.
Nationalist temptations are boring and silly (and dangerous) as usual. Luckily, this idea was abandoned almost immediately.
I completely agree with that. However, as for the map: I think it is more important the idea that it wants to represent, rather than what it actually represents. Otherwise, if you want to express something closer to reality, then go to outer space, take a pic of the earth from up there and put it in you banknote. -and even that way you'll get complains from people for not showing their regions. :roll:
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by dserrano5 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:48 pm

androl wrote:UA0 = U00xA1 (like N10)
UA1 = U00xB1 (like N11)
...
UA9 = U00xJ1
I just thought that a hypothetical new extra-large plate could in theory reach UAA = U00xK1, therefore having 3 letters in the serial number.

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by Montgomery Burns » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:43 pm

Let's get "urling" those "old" fivers, guys. They're all condemned anyways, so we might as well.

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by Craft » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:50 pm

androl wrote:so the raised ink lines are the only new security feature officially announced today? I have thought there would be more. In some of the videos, you see some more new UV features, though, like tri-colour UV fibres or different colour in UVC light.
I'm positive there are more, they are simply not revealed to public audience. In secure print products like banknotes there are at least two kinds of security features: 1) easily visible ones, aimed to make it possible for public audience to reasonably easily and accurately recognize fake notes from genuine ones in everyday situations; and 2) hidden ones, aimed to make it possible for experts to find even the most refined forgeries and difficult for forgers to know whether they have succeeded or not in noticing all features.

I believe that the vast majority of fake notes are not very high quality (usually made by laser copiers or such) and can be picked up by checking the public security features. But in case some highly skilled criminals somewhere succeed in making very deceptively genuine-looking notes, there must be some extremely hidden features which can be used for checking which notes are almost perfect but still fake.

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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by ART » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:46 am

Jes wrote: I completely agree with that. However, as for the map: I think it is more important the idea that it wants to represent, rather than what it actually represents. Otherwise, if you want to express something closer to reality, then go to outer space, take a pic of the earth from up there and put it in you banknote. -and even that way you'll get complains from people for not showing their regions. :roll:
True, even if I forgot the cutoff mentioned by androl.
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Know that I am the Overmind, the eternal will of the swarm,
and that you have been created to serve me."

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"Everything ends" (Ines)
"Run not tired me" (Ines)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Re: "Europa": 2nd series of euro banknotes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:28 pm

ART wrote:Something doesn't work on the map.

You immediately notice the expansion of the map that has been stretched to the east so you get to include Cyprus, and to the south of Sicily was put a dot representing Malta. In the little lateral trapezoids that shows the profiles of the European dependencies part of EU are obviously left the French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique and Reunion... but lacks Mayotte, which in 2011 changed its status from Territorial collectivity in Overseas department, then becoming France / EU all effects.
And logically in my opinion should be also put the three islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba, Special overseas municipality of the Netherlands that after the dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles in 2010 became part of the territory of the Netherlands.
JordiJanTaxi wrote: What a disappointment! The bill is the same. Yes: more languages, Europa face and new emerald print. But same designs, same schemes.
Oh... what a surprise! Image
The ECB had specified from ages that the new notes would keep the same graphic subjects.
JordiJanTaxi wrote:I have always imagined even "national" banknotes, where, for example, one quarter could have different representations of different countries, although 75% or more of the paper surface would be same for all of them.
Again, European "innovation" is not innovative, nor imaginative, but serious and boring (and silly?) as usual.
Nationalist temptations are boring and silly (and dangerous) as usual. Luckily, this idea was abandoned almost immediately.
Caro ART,

First, let me tell you that my "idea" on a small part of a "national area" on banknotes is not "nationalist", as you use it. Bush jr., Aznar and Berlusconi turned the meaning of this word as a synonim of something criminal. But it is not.

Right after I read your post I went see your profile (hobbies): weapons and military strategy. OK. I understand a bit more, now. Maybe you would like to solve what you call "nationalism" with "weapons" via "military strategy"...

No need, see? It is just a comment, and having a small different design that does not affect safety features, and does not affect the general perception of the whole banknote, size, colour, etc, must not be a problem for anybody. Concerning this subject I honestly find your comments ironic to say the least, sarcastic and even rude. What I suggest for the banknotes is not different from what goes on with the coins. Where they are, from one side, TOTALLY different from country to country, or worse, with commemorative mintings, and nobody has become crazy or paranoic about it. Androl has taken most of my idea.

As for your comment about the "ages" we know about the subjects depicted on the banknotes, just tell that depicting "classical architecture" does not necessarily mean "again the same archs and bridges". Could have been "classical" but another design, couldn't it? And maybe, some day, subjects depicted in banknotes can be "industries", for example... one, naval, one aeronautic, one spacial, etc.,

Ci vediamo nel forum. Ciao.

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