Ownership of the EBT-Database

[eddydevries]

In the topic "Suspicious notes and users" there was a discussion if someone may ask to delete all his entries in the EBT-database, or that the note-information after entering becomes property of EBT.

To keep that topic "ontopic", I open this topic to discuss what the thoughts are. Here we also have the time to search what's mentioned about this in European laws and Precedent.




(moderators: feel free to move this topic to the forum "Feedback and Development if that's the better spot of this topic and to change the text if it's reading strangely after adding the other posts).

[avij]

I assume we're talking about note entries only. There's already a well-defined legal framework for the EBT translations and other contributions.

Everything is the property of whoever created it, unless proven otherwise. This means that the note entries belong to the user who entered them, and as such, the user should have full control of what can be done with his/her data, including deletion.

If you have other opinions, you have to prove them. Unsubstantiated opinions don't count. Where does it say that the note entries would be the property of someone else, like, say, the association?

For reference, Facebook says you own all of the content and information you post on Facebook (however, they do have a funny clause "unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it" in there). When you write something on Wikipedia, there's this text near the Save button: "By clicking the 'Save page' button, you agree to the Terms of Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL.". We don't have anything like that.

And laws aside, it's just good manners and good netizenship to allow users to leave and take their data with them. I'd much rather concentrate on making the "EBT experience" better so that nobody would even get the idea of leaving.

[Petri6]

I completely agree with avij! I've been a member of EBT for almost 11 years and in that time I have entered almost every note that has passed through my hands and I will continue to do so. However, I also exhaustively comment my notes and some of that data is very personal and some of it could even be used against me. This is why it's important to me, that I have the possibility to erase all of my notes and related data from the database, should EBT ever go to a direction I can't agree with. Hopefully that day will never come and I'll keep entering notes until old age, but that is a very important safety issue at least for me personally.

[dserrano5]

I also exhaustively comment my notes and some of that data is very personal and some of it could even be used against me. This is why it's important to me, that I have the possibility to erase all of my notes and related data from the database

You could always ask for the removal of the comments only. I think many users (I, for one) would rather have a hit with an uncommented note than no hit at all .

[an-148]

We don't have anything like that.

yes, and therefore we ask for it : simple like that

Everything is the property of whoever created it, unless proven otherwise.

I agree, therefore the numbers of the notes belong to the BCE and not to somebody who copied that number somewhere, including ebt. a contrario, this number never belongs to the one who copied it somewhere, including ebt


Now, let's go to basics, even if someone thinks my opinion is an "unsubstantiated opinion": if I am somebody who discovers ebt, by surfing, reading newspapers, or any other way, I have the choice to smile about those crazy people who are posting there and "pass by", ........... or I can go deeper and try to register some notes I have in my wallet: I take a responsability towards other users: I deliver the knowledge of the existence of a number of bill that was seen on a certain place at a certain date: this knowledge is (by the principle of ebt) destinated to enter a chain that is interresting for other ebt-users, not for the "common world" !! If I'm not interrested anymore, I simply don't go further in that direction (we have sooooooooo many users that stop after a few bills), but I admit logically that the numbers I registered are a gift to the other users who like to continue what became a hobby for them, and a gift is a gift: taking back is stealing !!

Let's be practical: if I find that nobody has to know which bills I have (in transit !!!) in my wallet, I will never publish on ebt, point !
Registering one bill means that you don't care some other people know you had THAT bill in your wallet on ../../....

Life can be so simple

[an-148]

.... also, about what somebody said about the comments: if you think they are too personnal, simply don't write them : simple, isn't it ?
(I stopped to comment, after some other "acid" user took advantage of the comment to criticize me: i simply stopped to put comments, easy, or not?)

[avij]

We don't have anything like that.

yes, and therefore we ask for it : simple like that

Even if we slapped something like "All the note entries are the property of A2E" on the webpage today, it wouldn't affect any entries prior to that date. In particular, it wouldn't have helped with the beaweb case (which fortunately turned out okay after all). We can't unilaterally take away rights from the users without some sort of an agreement from the respective user.

And I don't even personally want to have A2E as the owner of the note entries. I still prefer to have the users as owners of their own entries. Perhaps we could clarify this on EBT, like having a note somewhere saying "Note entries are the property of the user, eveything else is the property of the association". There would be less confusion about who owns what with that kind of a notice.

I agree, therefore the numbers of the notes belong to the BCE and not to somebody who copied that number somewhere, including ebt. a contrario, this number never belongs to the one who copied it somewhere, including ebt

No, a single serial number is not copyrightable, it doesn't have enough creative content or information value. But a collection of serial numbers in a particular location as recorded by an EBT user might be. We haven't used any of ECB's collections of serial numbers for EBT, so we're not using ECB's copyrighted content for the serial numbers (the copyrighted Euro banknote images we have are allowed to be used with the 'specimen' 'stamp', some info about that can be seen from the links on this page).

Consider the following example: Temperature readings in a city. At the moment the temperature in Helsinki is rather chilly 8C. That information in itself isn't copyrightable. However, if one collected hourly temperature readings for a city for a decade (more than 87600 entries), that information could be copyrightable.

I admit logically that the numbers I registered are a gift to the other users who like to continue what became a hobby for them, and a gift is a gift: taking back is stealing !!

Good for you. I also hope others feel the same way if/when they lose interest in EBT, it'd let us keep their note entries. However, you can't expect everyone to think the same way about entering data to EBT.

[an-148]

fine !

I think it's hopeless, i'm loosing time (and nerves)

Good for you.

you'll never understand !!!!!!!!! good for all people who put numbers in ebt !

those who fear for their "private life" (or how you may call it with your pseudo-juristic words) will simply avoid ebt : so simple like this !!

all the other, who register, WANT to share that "privacy ! (I just finish to explain this and you come back with nonsense juristics who have nothing to do in a hobby ! let's simply remain a hobby.

this is the last post I make on this subject

[ErGo]

you'll never understand !!!!!!!!! good for all people who put numbers in ebt !

I think, avij understand your arguments very well, but that doesn't mean, that he has to agree with them!

those who fear for their "private life" (or how you may call it with your pseudo-juristic words) will simply avoid ebt : so simple like this !!

Yes, but there also people, who changed their opinion over the years, and so its good that they know, that their whishes will be respected - at least at EBT.

[an-148]

from: https://en.eurobilltracker.com/association/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The main tasks and goals for the association are*

being in possession of all intellectual properties related to EuroBillTracker, including the website and its various domain names. The assets of EuroBillTracker also include the program code, databases, translations etc.
being responsible for all issues related to EuroBillTracker
creating and managing the conditions for optimal Tracking of Euro Bills
promoting EuroBillTracking
promoting communication between the users of EuroBillTracker
protecting the EuroBillTracker database
financing, when deemed necessary, the promotion and the tools of EuroBillTracker
ensuring a free of charge use of EuroBillTracker on-line tools

*as stated in the official statutes.

[Petri6]

I also exhaustively comment my notes and some of that data is very personal and some of it could even be used against me. This is why it's important to me, that I have the possibility to erase all of my notes and related data from the database

You could always ask for the removal of the comments only. I think many users (I, for one) would rather have a hit with an uncommented note than no hit at all .

Removing the comments of course would be the most important part, but that would still leave the date and location info, which also tells a pretty clear story of where I've been. Now that info by itself couldn't be removed without actually removing the note entries themselves.

Why do I write comments then? Not every note becomes a hit. Not even every 10th or 20th note becomes a hit. They still remain in my notes database and I can search them years later. For me that works sort of like a journal. If in the future the hitratio dramatically lowers, I'll have to enter less personal comments and maybe giving up writing them all together. I for one think that comments are very useful and make a hit much more interesting, so I'd rather not stop commenting but have the option to remove my comments or even the entries later.

[klapotec]

The assets of EuroBillTracker also include the program code, databases, translations etc.

protecting the EuroBillTracker database

certainly, BUT the database is NOT the same as the data CONTAINED in the database...

[avij]

from: https://en.eurobilltracker.com/association/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The main tasks and goals for the association are*

being in possession of all intellectual properties related to EuroBillTracker, including the website and its various domain names. The assets of EuroBillTracker also include the program code, databases, translations etc.
being responsible for all issues related to EuroBillTracker
creating and managing the conditions for optimal Tracking of Euro Bills
promoting EuroBillTracking
promoting communication between the users of EuroBillTracker
protecting the EuroBillTracker database
financing, when deemed necessary, the promotion and the tools of EuroBillTracker
ensuring a free of charge use of EuroBillTracker on-line tools

*as stated in the official statutes.

Yes, the statutes do say so due to historical reasons. The "database" in the statutes refers to the entire database of EBT, including note entries, translations, coordinates and such. Even if the statutes say that the association owns everything, it might not be entirely accurate. As you may remember, the association was formed when there was disagreement about who owns what about EBT. As for the note entries, Giro claimed that he owns them, while I was already back then of the opinion that the users themselves own them. We never reached a definitive conclusion regarding that, but regardless of that we set up the association which would hold any and all intellectual property rights that Giro, myself and Nerzhul have possibly accumulated over the years.

So, if Giro was right and he owned the note entries database, the note entries (and other things in the database) are now the property of the association. If he was wrong and I was right, the note entries still belong to the users themselves because the association can't unilaterally take away rights from the individual users without their agreement.

Perhaps this could be clarified in the statutes. It's not the only thing that'd need clarifying, but that's another can of worms that I'm not going to open in this topic.

[MDeen]

I assume we're talking about note entries only. There's already a well-defined legal framework for the EBT translations and other contributions.

Everything is the property of whoever created it, unless proven otherwise. This means that the note entries belong to the user who entered them, and as such, the user should have full control of what can be done with his/her data, including deletion.

If you have other opinions, you have to prove them. Unsubstantiated opinions don't count. Where does it say that the note entries would be the property of someone else, like, say, the association?

I don't understand this comment about proving, but that might be because we both are not native english speakers.
Why do I have to prove an opinion?

Apart from that: I think the reasoning to have entries in the EBT databse to be the property of the user is flawed. EBT thrives on the entry of notes and should protect correct note entries in their database. That means that EBT should not actively support deletion of correct note information because it is not in their and certainly not in the user's interest.
There is no legal reason why this should be a problem, I am member on another forum where it is clearly stated that every post made on the forum is the property of the forum.

[avij]

I don't understand this comment about proving, but that might be because we both are not native english speakers.
Why do I have to prove an opinion?

I mentioned it in an attempt to reduce the amount of comments that say "I wish the situation was like this" or "it's just common sense" or "it'd be fair for everyone this way". This is very much a legal issue (to the dismay of a few people) and there are laws that are relevant to these issues. Laws don't necessarily operate on the principle of "it's just common sense".

because it is not in their and certainly not in the user's interest.

It's indeed not in EBT's immediate interests to have note entries deleted, but respecting the user's requests regarding their data increases our trustworthiness in the long term. Deleting some user's note entries is also not in the interests of all the other users, but it's very much in the interests of that particular user who wants to have their data deleted.

I am member on another forum where it is clearly stated that every post made on the forum is the property of the forum.

Yes, if it's clearly stated and if the policy was informed to the user before the user posted any messages, then it's not a problem. As a counterexample, I'm also a frequent visitor of one discussion site where it says in the page footer that "Comments owned by the poster".