names of cities in various languages

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capitobi
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Post by capitobi »

Beatminister wrote:Generally, a name should not and doesnt need to be translated. Whats the sense of it? If someone tells me his name is John, I dont call him Johann either. ;)
Well, in fact it isn't always about translations. Often the names of locations are just adapted due to the difficulty of pronouncing the original names correctly. As for the example about Polish cities: I think even for natives it might be nicer to hear "Bromberg" than a German trying to pronounce "Bydgoszcz". Sometimes I actually wished that there were more foreign versions od places in Austria. It is really painful to hear an average Italian tourist talking about Unterpremstätten. ;)
...or - being Austrian myself - even hear people from Northern Germany pronounce the place mentioned above...

...nothing against Italian accent, I love it! :lol:
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Post by Dakkus »

But I see nothing bad in Germans seeing German versions of the city names. The Polish users will probably see the names of some German cities in their own language, too. Is that then bad?
And what's the point in defining some hundreds of years old place names "bad" only because of some shit that has happened looong after the names have been given? Doing that is only attributing everything good as done by them. Which I don't find very clever.
You should rememer the crap, but you should not give the nazis any respect when it comes to their unilateral redefinitions of history.
Your way of thinking is actually accepting their "truth" as the correct one and dismissing the reality that existed before the 1930's and the world wars.

And BTW, would you prefer "in Germany zu wohnen" or "living in Deutschland"? Is the capital of EU "Brussel", "Bruxelles" or perhaps "Brussels"?
How would you like the idea of travelling to Suomi through Polska, Lietuva, Latvija and Eesti?
Do you really think words such as "Finnland", "Polen", "Litauen", "Latwien" and "Estland" should not be used?
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Post by Beatminister »

capitobi wrote:As for the example about Polish cities: I think even for natives it might be nicer to hear "Bromberg" than a German trying to pronounce "Bydgoszcz".
Well, I´m not so sure... :)
Admittedly, the pronounciation is not always easy, depending on the language. But I think we should at least try, instead of inventing a "nick name" - it´s about respect, too. ;)
And I can say Unterpremstätten. "Unterpremstätten!" No problem at all. :lol:
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Post by Beatminister »

Dakkus wrote:But I see nothing bad in Germans seeing German versions of the city names. The Polish users will probably see the names of some German cities in their own language, too. Is that then bad?
And what's the point in defining some hundreds of years old place names "bad" only because of some shit that has happened looong after the names have been given? Doing that is only attributing everything good as done by them. Which I don't find very clever.
You should rememer the crap, but you should not give the nazis any respect when it comes to their unilateral redefinitions of history.
Your way of thinking is actually accepting their "truth" as the correct one and dismissing the reality that existed before the 1930's and the world wars.

And BTW, would you prefer "in Germany zu wohnen" or "living in Deutschland"? Is the capital of EU "Brussel", "Bruxelles" or perhaps "Brussels"?
How would you like the idea of travelling to Suomi through Polska, Lietuva, Latvija and Eesti?
Do you really think words such as "Finnland", "Polen", "Litauen", "Latwien" and "Estland" should not be used?
I can only hope the Polish have a different version - its them who dislike the old names being used, not the Germans.
There is a very simple way to determine what a city is called: ask someone who lives there.
Call me radical, but I wouldn´t have a problem to say "...living in Deutschland..." or "...Urlaub machen in Suomi...". ;)
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Post by Dakkus »

Well, my main point is that you shouldn't try to alter languages for reasons of logicality. If you have read 1984, you know what I mean :)
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Post by capitobi »

Beatminister wrote:And I can say Unterpremstätten. "Unterpremstätten!" No problem at all. :lol:
But there's absolutely no doubt you can't pronounce it in a way a native wouldn't know you're German. :lol:

Just for the minutes: Read "Untapreïmsteït'n" (de) "Oontahprameshtate'n" (en)
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Post by Beatminister »

Dakkus wrote:Well, my main point is that you shouldn't try to alter languages for reasons of logicality. If you have read 1984, you know what I mean :)
Yes, I have, but its so long ago that I dont remember what scene you are refering to. Anyway, I´m quiet aware that things are as they are - and that our discussion here will not gonna change them. ;)
But the requirements of our life can cause things to change. The Internet for example is something that sets new requirements, or the ease of flying to any place in the world. Who knows how we will speak in 50 or 100 years...
So for now the problem will remain for site admins, I guess.
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Post by Beatminister »

But there's absolutely no doubt you can't pronounce it in a way a native wouldn't know you're German
That´s well possible - but that begins already from Frankfurt southward. But at least I tried it... :)
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Post by Beatminister »

ka-8 wrote:Well, let me drop my two cents as I feel asked to the board. I am a Pole...
I´m glad that you as a Pole speak up here (I wasn´t too hopeful, because there are not so many around here) and even more glad that you and many people you know are not suffering from this anti-german paranoia. With great worry I observed the decay of the polish-german relations over the past years. I heard you will have elections soon, and I pray that more reasonable people get elected into government this time, who are more future orientated instead of clinging to hard feelings of the past.

Your mentioning of polish words for german cities clearly shows how big the translation problem for city names really is: you have your own names, the Finns have them, the Italians, and every other country. Just to collect them all is a huge job, and ends up with a bible sized book full of explainations who calls what place with what name.
And its a big job for the admins here to get even the most common city names integrated into the system.

Btw, Kolonia and Monachium sound Roman. Perhaps you should update your maps of Germany - those names are not in use for 1500 years... :lol:
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Post by Nerzhul »

I'm aware that many languages have different names for lots of cities. As I said earlier, with the current approach we can only fix the very few obvious cases like e.g. Brussels/Brüssel/Bruxelles.

Everything else will have to be carefully planned and worked into a big scaling solution which'd allow us to have translated names for ALL cities. There are some possibilities (e.g. some Wiki-style solution) but I'll have to think about this for a while. Also, this clearly doesn't have highest priority at the moment and my time is very very limited nowadays.
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Post by hoppa »

maybe a bit late but: Dakkus: it's Liege :)
it is better not to say anything and let people doubt if you're stupid; then to speak and take the doubt away. - Mark Twain
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Post by yli »

ka-8 wrote:It may be also solved by making strict but easy rules.
I think that's not really necessary. Correct me if I am wrong, but this topic was about changing the cityprofiles of locations in all EBT languages - which now only applies for some major cities.

If you take a look at the cityprofile of Brussels (I now use the english name for Brussel/Bruxelles because I type in english) you see hits from the users in the way they typed the capitol of Belgium. In this case it's easy to see if a user in flemish (dutch speaking) or wallonian (french speaking). Anyway, it doens't matter how a city is spelled - as long as it's merged into one cityprofile.

Brussels is officialy a bilangual city (in a trilangual country) so it might not be the best example. I used «Brussel» for my notes I received there (and I used the dutch language), if I had to speak french I might entered those bills as Bruxelles.

I prefer to use the local language (and spelling) of city names - although I haven't used the cyrillic writing of my locations in Bosnia-Hercegovina (republika Srpska) and Ukraine.


Another problem with changing the cityprofile names to the language used by the EBT user is finding a cityprofile. I use EBT in dutch - but with the new search function, it's not easy to find the profile of Köln .... I should search for Keulen :cry:
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Post by Beatminister »

ka-8 wrote:In this part I cannot agree with You. Kolonia and Monachium (as well as many others e.g. Lubeka for Luebeck or Ratyzbona for Regensburg) are used every day in Polish language and I do not see any reason to modify it.
Ok then, under the circumstances I think we can live with that. :)
And in the case of Monachium I was wrong - it didn´t even exist at the time of the Roman Empire. Or the Romans didn´t dare to go there... ;)

Anyway... concerning the name problem for EBT I also agree with you: it should be solved by a strict but easy rule. Like the one I suggested earlier: call the city by its real name, the name that its inhabitants use.
I mean - if you enter a note for a city it means you received it there - and you have been there - so where is the problem to find out the name? Especially since you need to find out the post code as well. ;)
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Post by Nerzhul »

Beatminister wrote:Anyway... concerning the name problem for EBT I also agree with you: it should be solved by a strict but easy rule. Like the one I suggested earlier: call the city by its real name, the name that its inhabitants use.
I mean - if you enter a note for a city it means you received it there - and you have been there - so where is the problem to find out the name? Especially since you need to find out the post code as well. ;)
Quite frankly, this is a pretty stupid rule. You really don't want to enter notes from القاهرة‎ from your last vacation to Egypt.
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Post by Gauss »

Nerzhul wrote:
Beatminister wrote:Anyway... concerning the name problem for EBT I also agree with you: it should be solved by a strict but easy rule. Like the one I suggested earlier: call the city by its real name, the name that its inhabitants use.
Quite frankly, this is a pretty stupid rule. You really don't want to enter notes from القاهرة‎ from your last vacation to Egypt.
On the other hand, in EU countries which use the latin alphabet this rule would rather make life easier.

In my experience, it is largely followed anyway in these countries (out of common sense) so that there should be no need to promote it to a formal guideline.
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