I don't know what is the situation in Gibraltar, but I have read that the british government and the spanish government are talking about a new status for the colony...
Do you think it will go back to Spain, remain British or become independant?
(Who knows the situation, in Spain or the UK ?)
Gibraltar
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ag_pt
- Euro-Regular
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 2:37 pm
- Location: Lisboa, Portugal (38º44'N 9º12'W)
Take a look at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/litigio.htm for a history on the problem. Olivença/Olivenza is a Portuguese territory illegaly occupied by Spain since the Napoleonic wars.Olivier wrote:I don't know what it is...BossaNova wrote: the question Olivença between Portugal and Spain it's another one, that Spanish love to forget...
There was not a lasting international delimitation of the border. If you see the Portuguese Army Geographic Institute map of mainland Portugal (1:25000 scale map) at http://www.igeoe.pt/Geral/Portugues/cat ... apel2.html you see that the blue border line is not closed... it even includes 441-A sheet of Olivença.
ag_pt
Portugal
it's normal you never heard about it.. spanish politicians make so much noise because of a rock, but portuguese politicians don't even like to listen the word Olivença... 
they're always affraid of spoiling our relations with Spain.. at least when they have the power, when they're the opposition they talk sometimes..
but this is bad, because the anti-spanish feeling is growing very fast in Portugal, and it's the perfect motif to make grow the (until now) non-existing far right...
..and politicians should use precisly the Gibraltar question to talk about Olivença..
Gibraltar is less than 6 Km2 in area; it is 125 times smaller than Olivenza. If the Spanish Government claims the restitution of Gibraltar from the United Kingdom, on historical grounds but with no juridical arguments, why cannot Portugal demand that Spain give back Olivenza, since there are no doubts about the Portuguese rights to this territory?
they're always affraid of spoiling our relations with Spain.. at least when they have the power, when they're the opposition they talk sometimes..but this is bad, because the anti-spanish feeling is growing very fast in Portugal, and it's the perfect motif to make grow the (until now) non-existing far right...
..and politicians should use precisly the Gibraltar question to talk about Olivença..
Gibraltar is less than 6 Km2 in area; it is 125 times smaller than Olivenza. If the Spanish Government claims the restitution of Gibraltar from the United Kingdom, on historical grounds but with no juridical arguments, why cannot Portugal demand that Spain give back Olivenza, since there are no doubts about the Portuguese rights to this territory?
would you like to see a german flag in the top of Eiffel Tower? or an italian one in the Arc of Triumph?
yes there are no more borders, but there are still countries and nations, and they won't end so soon.. the Olivença question shows the arrogance that spanish authorities always had towards Portugal..
Spain always was the great obstacle that made us feel far from Europe, and that's why still today many portuguese don't feel european, and some don't want to be.. until the 20th century Portugal was always an island, with sea on one side and war in the other..
that's why for centuries we were a lot more connected with South America, Africa and Asia then Europe.. like Eça wrote, Europe arrives in boxes full of books from the train that came from Paris... something like this..
portuguese people (myself included) has this collective and eternal fear of a spanish invasion, 8 centuries of war can't be forgot with one centurie of weak peace... Spain is still the enemy!
and now that East-Timor is independent, Indonesia is no longer the great devil of the portuguese, so the place is empty, and the last attitudes os the Spanish authorities only make Spain the perfect candidate to substitute Indonesia...
I still have more exams to do, so I can't be here any longer, but soon I'll write some more stuff about the strange love-hate(lots of it) relations between Portugal and Spain..
and as I said, is better to talk about this questions with good sense, then to hide them under the carpet... the far right is sleeping but not dead...
yes there are no more borders, but there are still countries and nations, and they won't end so soon.. the Olivença question shows the arrogance that spanish authorities always had towards Portugal..
Spain always was the great obstacle that made us feel far from Europe, and that's why still today many portuguese don't feel european, and some don't want to be.. until the 20th century Portugal was always an island, with sea on one side and war in the other..
that's why for centuries we were a lot more connected with South America, Africa and Asia then Europe.. like Eça wrote, Europe arrives in boxes full of books from the train that came from Paris... something like this..
portuguese people (myself included) has this collective and eternal fear of a spanish invasion, 8 centuries of war can't be forgot with one centurie of weak peace... Spain is still the enemy!
and now that East-Timor is independent, Indonesia is no longer the great devil of the portuguese, so the place is empty, and the last attitudes os the Spanish authorities only make Spain the perfect candidate to substitute Indonesia...
I still have more exams to do, so I can't be here any longer, but soon I'll write some more stuff about the strange love-hate(lots of it) relations between Portugal and Spain..
and as I said, is better to talk about this questions with good sense, then to hide them under the carpet... the far right is sleeping but not dead...
The majority of the people in the City of Olivença are spanish colonists, but in the small villages around there are still many portuguese.
At this moment Spain acts like Oliença is just another spanish town, so the army and all that stuff are with Spain..
for more details please go to this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/litigio.htm, there you can find lots of information (portuguese, spanish, english, french and italian.. sorry not german
)
At this moment Spain acts like Oliença is just another spanish town, so the army and all that stuff are with Spain..
for more details please go to this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/litigio.htm, there you can find lots of information (portuguese, spanish, english, french and italian.. sorry not german
)I have browsed through the link that BossaNova mentioned. This irregularity is very old. All of the people who live in the territory have only experienced the actual situation.
What would it mean to the 10,000 people, if they got repatriated? Does it mean that they have to learn a new language? What will a change in tax legislation mean? Most of them probably got job in Spain, they will get lots of bureaucratic trouble with tax-paying to 2 different countries. Life will not become easier for them.
Does the area have any strategic, commercial or other importance to the country of Portugal?
Are there people who want to cultivate their Portuguese culture, but experience restrictions through Spanish authorities? Are schools bilingual?
Portugal has not made much effort about Olivença in the last decades, why should they do now? Are human rights of European people endangered? Why doesn't Portugal demand its rights in the appropriate European institutions?
What would it mean to the 10,000 people, if they got repatriated? Does it mean that they have to learn a new language? What will a change in tax legislation mean? Most of them probably got job in Spain, they will get lots of bureaucratic trouble with tax-paying to 2 different countries. Life will not become easier for them.
Does the area have any strategic, commercial or other importance to the country of Portugal?
Are there people who want to cultivate their Portuguese culture, but experience restrictions through Spanish authorities? Are schools bilingual?
Portugal has not made much effort about Olivença in the last decades, why should they do now? Are human rights of European people endangered? Why doesn't Portugal demand its rights in the appropriate European institutions?
I'm not completly sure if the returning of Olivença would be a good thing, to Portugal or Spain, and to Luso-Spanish relations, but what I don't like is seeing all the noise about the rock (Gibraltar) that spanish authorities make, and all the silent about Olivença (Portugal), Ceuta and Melilla (Morocco).. and yes, this silence is also because of the coward portuguese politicians, thats why I also say, that the far-right that in the last elections was the last political party, with less votes then candidates 
, can use this problem to grow very fast!
, can use this problem to grow very fast!<<<<and all the silent about Olivença (Portugal), Ceuta and Melilla (Morocco)..>>>>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html
