Turkey in Europe?

[Guest]

one of the things they did do good was the divorce of state and church by Ataturk after WW1 (something aperantly the US never did )
the european part of turkey (west of the bosporus) has been influinced by europe (greeks/romans/byzantium).
There are a lot of turks all over europe (for labor in netherlands, germany, belgium etc.) (and etnic minorities in balkan and eastern europe) this makes that there is an influince to both sides.

I'm not saying turkey should join the the EU, not at all but your oppinion could be a bit more nuanced[/quote]

Greece and Byzantium is the same...

But also...how can they be in EU when every day they fly their F-16 (fully armed) above the Greek Islands?
How can they be in EU when the people in Turkey have no human rights?
Also as I said...Turkey is a gate for more Muslims to come in EU (illegal)
We dont need illegal immigrants..right?

[wouter]

Greece and Byzantium is the same...

But also...how can they be in EU when every day they fly their F-16 (fully armed) above the Greek Islands?
How can they be in EU when the people in Turkey have no human rights?
Also as I said...Turkey is a gate for more Muslims to come in EU (illegal)
We dont need illegal immigrants..right?

you are right about the problems between greece and turkey they should be solved first otherwise greece would always use their veto againgst turkey.
the human rights in turkey aren't respected as they should but I don't say they are ready at this moment to join the EU, not at all.

we don't need illegal immigrants but we do need legal ones if not our economy (the netherlands) wont be able to survive as people are getting older and older young ones are neccesary to contribute (both as nurse/docter and by tax money) to their care.

[Olivier]

I just have some doubts about geography: is it called _European_ union (iveohc already mentioned it)?

Yes, but there are already european territories out of the european continent: Açores, Madera, Canarias, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Réunion and the French Guyana which has a border with Brasil.
Nobody would say this territory in south america is not in the European Union. We use it to launch the Ariane rockets...

This is more question of way of life, rich€sse... and mentality. They have start to change with the abolition of the death penalt. They still have many to do, but I don't wish Europe to close the door. After all, why Bulgaria should be in Europe and Turkey would be not?

O.

[Olivier]

I'm curious about what the 18 people that voted NO to Turkey think about Cyprus joining in the year 2004...

because if Turkey isn't Europe, Cyprus is even less european...

and by the way, can anyone imagine Albania in EU? when? 2050?

Why "less" European? Isn't it the same?

I imagine Albania in the EU at the same time as Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bosnia... maybe in the 2010s' ...

[Olivier]

About the Turkish membership: The discussion is a little like "are Turks members of the people of Europe"? But is there such a thing like the people of Europe?

If there is no people of Europe, Europe cannot be democratic, because democracy requires a people.

There is a linkage among the individuals of Euroland and I think that this is felt by the participants of EBT. But is it the same kind of relationship as among Frenchmen or among Italians? What is the proper descripton for the relationship that make Europeans a particular group? Nation? People? Community? Else?

Back to the Turks: If they try so hard, isn't this reason enough to let them join. Why are we members of the European Community? Probably because the majority of the people in our countries wants so. The Turks seem to have a similar motivation.

This is a very interesting debate... and moreover since our leaders are talking about a european constitution.

The relations among the French is not as simple as it seams. The inhabitants of Alsace and Corsica are very different. So are the people of Bretagne and Pays basque. The Parisians are not the same as the rest of the population. I don't even talk about the French of the overseas countries... Anyway, we are french. We have always felt french, for centuries.

I think this is the same with the USA. The people of California are not the same as the people from New England. We can't say they are not all americans.

The reason is that they share same values, same ideals. In France, the common values that we have had for centuries come from the French Revolution. There are other common values like laicity, a different point of view on the world affairs...

The Europeans share common points of view, common values. It is very noticable when you read the comments on this forum. Of course, we are not living exactly the same way, of course we have different languages and different cultures, but we agree with the same basic ideas.

A nation is based on precised criteria: a common history, a language, a unique territory, a religion or a common values... I think if Europe is not a nation, it may be one in a few years.
After all, the Swiss speak 4 languages, don't have the same culture, they want to keep a strong local power (in the cantons)... but they are swiss.

I already feel European, and more than ever since I am going to live in North America.

Olivier

[Olivier]

About Cyprus...Cuprus is a Greek part and the people there are Greeks (in the free part of the island) Thats why Cyprus will join EU.

Cyprus will join with its two parts... There will be turkophone people in the European Union. The people of Cyprus are not only greek...

O.

[Olivier]

Now Turkey...why do we need them??? They have nothing in common with the rest of the Europeans...ofcourse because they are not from Europe.In their history they did nothing good at all! Can anyone say something that they did good?
If they join EU then its like we open the gates for the Muslims (or not talking about religion...Iran,Iraq,Pakistan,Algeria...) We definatelly dont need them in Europe!

Wow... Why would we not need them?
Why do we need Poland? Why do we need Estonia?

The thing is not "needing someone", it's sharing a common vision, a common identity...

I don't agree that Turkey did only bad things. I think that you just don't know anything about Turkey and its history. Could you tell me what happened in this country since 1919?

About your last sentence... I don't like the idea of "opening the gate for the Muslims". First of all, there are millions of Muslims in Europe, and things are not so bad. Do you know that Islam is the second religion of France?
I don't agree we don't need them. It's simply ignorance and racism. I have arab friends. My cousin got married a guy whose mother comes from Algeria. I think we have things to learn from the southern countries.

Your vision of Islam and the Muslims is a caricature... moreover when you know that Turkey is a laïc country, such as France. The girls from Turkey don't habe burkas. They listen to Britney Spears and have relatives in France, Germany and the Netherlands...

The question of Turkey membership in the EU has nothing to do with the feeling that "we have nothing to do with those people".

Olivier

[Olivier]

Now Turkey...why do we need them??? They have nothing in common with the rest of the Europeans...ofcourse because they are not from Europe.In their history they did nothing good at all! Can anyone say something that they did good?

your oppinion could be a bit more nuanced

I agree!

[Olivier]

The interesting point is that Poland has strongly objected the plan they wouldn't get 100% immediately but only after certain transitional period, makes you wonder about the motives and who needs who more...

On the other hand, why should they not get the same as the other members of the EU?

[Olivier]

Greece and Byzantium is the same...

But also...how can they be in EU when every day they fly their F-16 (fully armed) above the Greek Islands?
How can they be in EU when the people in Turkey have no human rights?
Also as I said...Turkey is a gate for more Muslims to come in EU (illegal)
We dont need illegal immigrants..right?

Who are you? You don't tell your name...

Greece is not exactly the same as Byzantium! Byzantium was the second capital of the Roman Empire! Byzantium and Constantinople were the heirs of the Roman Empire, untill 1453.
The links between Bizantium and Venice, between the Ottomans and France... were strong. François 1er of France has been allied for decades with "La Sublime Porte".

About the illegal immigrants: don't you think they already come, even if Turkey is no member of Europe? The solution is a better european policy and a european leadership on this topic.

O.

[Olivier]

we don't need illegal immigrants but we do need legal ones if not our economy (the netherlands) wont be able to survive as people are getting older and older young ones are neccesary to contribute (both as nurse/docter and by tax money) to their care.

I think we should adapt the american and canadian immigration procedures. Canada is looking for immigrants and has a special policy for it. The controls should be stronger at the european borders. When will we have a common policy of immmigration and common visas?

Olivier

[Finn]

On the other hand, why should they not get the same as the other members of the EU?

I'm not expert in EU expansion nor agricultural matters, but I´m under impression that e.g. Poland has much more old fashioned farming methods than EU and because of that and something else, paying same than current members get could be unfair to the current members and it would increase total amount so much that EU would need to do cuts elsewhere. So Poland should first modernize their farming before they should get equal treatment, something like don´t give them few fish but give them a rod and teach how to use it I guess

As I said, am no expert, don´t hesitate to correct me.

[Tiverius]

Byzantine empire bacame Greek and Orthodox after the 3rd emperor Great Konstantine took the throne.At the glorious days of Byzantium (e.g. Ioustinianos period) greek was the official language of the empire and christianity was the official religion.
Turkey will never join EU.Germans don't want that,because the 5.000.000 turkish living there will become much more!All these years EU where saying to Turkey that you are not accepted cause Greeks don't want that.Of course we don't want them unless they took their army from Cyprus and end the occupation,but even if the Cyprus problem solved Germans would deny access...
As you see,Olivier,only the republic of Cyprus joined EU and not the fake country of northern Cyprus.And Cyprus is much much more european than Turkey.In any way...

[Olivier]

Waw, the debate was 2 years old...

[Dakkus]

Waw, the debate was 2 years old...

That's exactly why new (forum) members are a nice thing ;)