Turkey in Europe?

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Should Turkey join the European Union?

Yes!
55
25%
No !
162
75%
 
Total votes: 217

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milanocapitale
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Postby milanocapitale » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:35 pm

micdab wrote:Interesting poll results:
http://euobserver.com/9/20450
I think the reasons are obvious: people are naturally scared by cultures different than their own. The Russian/Ukrainaian cultures are much closer to the European mainstream than are Turkish customs.


and Israelian is closer than Turkish
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Postby groentje » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:43 pm

milanocapitale wrote:
micdab wrote:Interesting poll results:
http://euobserver.com/9/20450
I think the reasons are obvious: people are naturally scared by cultures different than their own. The Russian/Ukrainaian cultures are much closer to the European mainstream than are Turkish customs.


and Israelian is closer than Turkish


Hmm, I wouldn't be to sure. The dominant position of asjkenazi (European) Jews seems to be tempered, both the leaders of Likud and Labour are Jews originally from Arab countries, aren't they? :wink:

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Postby milanocapitale » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:31 pm

groentje wrote:
milanocapitale wrote:
micdab wrote:Interesting poll results:
http://euobserver.com/9/20450
I think the reasons are obvious: people are naturally scared by cultures different than their own. The Russian/Ukrainaian cultures are much closer to the European mainstream than are Turkish customs.


and Israelian is closer than Turkish


Hmm, I wouldn't be to sure. The dominant position of asjkenazi (European) Jews seems to be tempered, both the leaders of Likud and Labour are Jews originally from Arab countries, aren't they? :wink:


I adore Israelian literature as expression of a real melting pot of different etnies of europe mixed with arabian influence, isn't this what we dream for europe?
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Passi per quello sfigato di Marin, passi per quella zoccola della Bruni, passi per una fabbrica di debito come Alitalia ma EBT NO!(Manadou sta gran zoccola)

IO NON SONO MARINARETTO

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Postby groentje » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:50 pm

milanocapitale wrote:I adore Israelian literature as expression of a real melting pot of different etnies of europe mixed with arabian influence, isn't this what we dream for europe?


I wouldn't mind if Israël would join the Union one day, if they accept the acquis communautaire, including the economical measures, the measures on Human Rights, and other. Just as I wouldn't mind Turkey to join, under the same conditions...

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Postby milanocapitale » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:09 am

Dakkus wrote:. . And.. Turkey sure is culturally closer to Italy than Finland :D


U SPEAK NEARLY THE SAME LANGUAGE WITH TURKISH!so maybe u are closer than us! :lol:
http://forum.eurobilltracker.eu/viewtop ... highlight=

:lol: :lol:
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Passi per quello sfigato di Marin, passi per quella zoccola della Bruni, passi per una fabbrica di debito come Alitalia ma EBT NO!(Manadou sta gran zoccola)

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Postby Tiverius » Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 pm

At about 13:00 hours Greek time May 23, 2006 a Turkish F-16 and a Greek F-16 airplane collided south to Karpathos.The Turkish airplane violated the Greek FIR and the Greek airplane was in the process of directing the Turkish airplane out of the Greek FIR.Greek pilot still missing.

We and our brothers in Cyprus will never let those barbarians enter the European Union.- :x
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Postby Gauss » Wed May 24, 2006 4:36 pm

Tiverius wrote:We and our brothers in Cyprus will never let those barbarians enter the European Union.-

If this type of argument would always prevail then France and Germany could never have started founding the European Community in the 1950ies - after three very bloody wars in less than 85 years and the last one just a decade before.

Fortunately, Adenauer and de Gaulle had a different attitude.

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Postby tabbs » Wed May 24, 2006 6:51 pm

Gauss wrote:
Tiverius wrote:We and our brothers in Cyprus will never let those barbarians enter the European Union.-

If this type of argument would always prevail then France and Germany could never have started founding the European Community in the 1950ies - after three very bloody wars in less than 85 years and the last one just a decade before.

Fortunately, Adenauer and de Gaulle had a different attitude.

And fortunately the governments in Athens and Ankara have a different attitude too. A couple of years ago such an incident might have brought the region close to a war. But it seems that at least the responsible politicians in the two countries are not such hotheads any more.

Christian

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Postby Tiverius » Wed May 24, 2006 7:58 pm

Athens "responsible politicians" accept anything Turkey does so "not to blockade Turkey's european prespective".I say that this is a treason.Above all european unions and treaties there must be the safety of our civilians.Why don't you go to the wife of the dead pilot to tell her about "responsible politicians"?What is the reaction of EU on the hostile policies on the Aegean and Cyprus?Would you say the same if that incident happened in yor FIR?
You must understand that this is not a greek-turkish problem.Greece and Cyprus ARE members of EU,threaten by a NON EU state and therefor the problem is an EU-turkish problem.EU should tell them you either stop your aggresive policies or you can not be a part of our union.Unfortunately our "responsible politicians" should have said that a long time ago.After the war I don't thing that de Gaulle was sending french planes over Munchen.Did he?
I am not supporting that there should have been a war,BUT someone has to tell them that's it!Behave or you are out!The official statement of the "responsible politicians" was "we are sorry for the incident.We hope that it want harm our relationship".And what would harm our relationship?When the Turks bomb Athens? :x
Anyway,if the time comes,for Turkey to enter EU,in Greece there will be a referendum.If turkish keep doing what they are doing,we,the people will block the way!It is very simple!
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Postby Dakkus » Wed May 24, 2006 9:24 pm

Well, sure you do understand that there is no real threat?

I don't know why the Turkish army finds it important flying over Greek territory. I believe it has to have something to do with Turkey's domestic politics or some weird ring of revenge between Turkey and Greece.
But anyway, there is no threat to civilians. An army pilot died, yes. But I wouldn't really claim he was a civilian.
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Postby Tiverius » Wed May 24, 2006 10:21 pm

No real threat?
By the international law,Greece has the right to extend the sea borders to 12 miles.For turkish army AND parliament this is a reason for war.Turkey also doesn't recognise the right (and commintment) of Greece for search and rescue in Athens FIR and the recognision of planes violating the rules by not giving flight routes.Turkish pilot rescued by a ship with Panama flag.Greek SAR helicopters arrived to the area and the pilot refused to be taken to a greek hospital.Newspapers say that he pulled a gun,but it is not official and certain.Our "responsible politicians" agreed that a turkish helicopter should carry him to Turkey for humanitarian reasons.
Turkish for several years try to share the Aegean islands which belong to us according to treaties signed by them too.In the 80s the tried to search for oil with the Piri Reis,but our Prime Minister at the time,Andreas Papandreou,ordered the Navy to send the ships and sink Piri Reis if entered to our sea borders.The ship never left Konstantinoupolis.In the 90s there was the Imia incident,were turkish commandos land to a greek terrirtory.No matter how small this rock is,it is still our land and is so important as the Acropolis rock in Athens.Does this sound strange to you?Why didn't you gave some part of Finland to the USSR?
And I ask you.What would you do if a russian jet plane,fully armed,was flying over Turku every day?The same question to the rest!Come for holidays to Chios,Rhodes,Karpathos,Limnos Or Mitilini and tell me if the F16s flying over your head is a threat or not.
The army pilot was not a civilian,but planes could have crashed to an island.And the pilot apart from military man was also a Greek (and an EU) citizen,who died to protect his country.
Last edited by Tiverius on Wed May 24, 2006 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tiverius » Wed May 24, 2006 10:22 pm

I don't know why the Turkish army finds it important flying over Greek territory. I believe it has to have something to do with Turkey's domestic politics or some weird ring of revenge between Turkey and Greece.

We should not solve the domestic problems of Turkey.Both Kemalists and Islamists have the same thoughts about their foreign politics.Try to expand Turkey and Turkey to turkish.Turkey apart from as is causing troubles with all its neighbours.There is the water problem with Syria,they invade in Iraq to chase the Kurdish "terrorists" and they were funding former USSR states,with turkish-speaking rebels to cause problems there.
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Postby tabbs » Wed May 24, 2006 11:37 pm

Dakkus wrote:I don't know why the Turkish army finds it important flying over Greek territory.

Because the Turkish government says it's not Greek territory. The national sea space around a Greek island is 6 nautical miles, but for some reason the air space around the same island is 10 nautical miles. As far as I know, the national air space and sea space of a country are usually the same, but (standard disclaimer about not being a lawyer :) .)

In my opinion Turkey may very well one day be an EU member, though that day is still very far away. This air space issue, however, is not an EU issue but one that the two neighbors need to deal with. And as I wrote, fortunately they do it differently than a couple of years ago. Seems encouraging to me.

Christian

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Postby avij » Thu May 25, 2006 12:27 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute has quite a lot of material regarding these tensions..
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Postby Dakkus » Thu May 25, 2006 12:13 pm

Turkish planes might be flying over Greece (or what you consider to be Greece, I don't know), but I really don't believe they would ever fire their weapons.
If a fully armed russian plane flew over Turku, I would find it annoying, but not frightening. I wouldn't be afraid of the plane suddenly attacking, I would only find it annoying that such flights are done only in order to show muscles.

And about giving land to USSR.. I find it completely positive that Russians got Petroskoi (in Finnish it was "Äänislinna" for a short while), because it wasn't rightfully Finnish territory anyway. However, I'm very sad for the losses of Petsamo and Carelia, because they were originally Finnish.

The same applies to the Greek-Turkish border. I find it very odd that Greece owns the islands that are only a short distance away from Turkish mainland. I don't know about the history of those islands, but I can't believe they have "just always been" Greek. However, if they have been inhabitet solely by Greek people, I do understand the point of keeping them Greece.
But then again, you have yourself mentioned that the Turkish army had taken over an uninhabitet rock. If that's the case, then I don't really understand where the problem lies. I find it OK that USSR took "Äänislinna" and I definitely do find it OK that USSR has also taken some useless area around "Äänislinna" (yuck) that was Finnish only because it was conquered from USSR.
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