Turkey in Europe?

[groentje]

Why wouldn't he? If people don't want to join the EU, the most important reason is fear of rejection, and limited economical benifit. Most feelings of such kind are unnecessary.

But people, I'm off to bed. I have to make a chicken lodging tomorrow

[milanocapitale]

Maybe it is just a new form of colonialism by us to conquest their market!

[groentje]

Maybe it is just a new form of colonialism by us to conquest their market!

OK, so why won't we do that?

[milanocapitale]

Maybe it is just a new form of colonialism by us to conquest their market!

OK, so why won't we do that?

because it is considered as a plaugue of '900, errors should not be committed again

[Phaseolus]

Dear Tiverius,

I feel from your kind words that our opinion on Turkey are slightly different.

It's amusing to think about The Greatness of Greece 3000 years ago and to remember times that are closer to us : 1980 : the year where Greece entered the EU, not because Greek people are hard workers, not because of your splendid economy, or your well-controlled budget, or your pollution control, or the astronomic costs of the Olympic games, or your high level of diplomacy. The only reason why you joined the EU is because the EU feared that Greece would fall into the hands of the Communist Block...

Going back 3000 years ago Greece was indeed a very attractive cultural center, so has been through the years so many nations.

Going back 60 years ago was WWII that destroyed Europe and the idea of the EU was to create economical interdependence between ex-ennemies to avoid future wars. It is indeed a reality, that (open) wars within the EU have ceased since 60 years : it's one of the longest peacefull period in time, ever succeeded in EU. On its own, this only point is a real succes for the EU.

Let's face it : when all habitants of a country have a car, access to shool and own their TV and can watch stupid soccer games on TV drinking a beer, they do not think of going to war against their neighbooring countries. That's the idea of the EU... And although it's not perfect, it works.

I answer now your amusing remarks :

1.Well some people do bother if their religion is under attack!they are part of EU too you know!

Is EU a defense for religions (which one(s) ?) or is it a threat ?

2.You are right!They were opressing and slaughtering the Balkans for centuries and that won't happen again!

So did, the Greeks, Romans, Hungarians, the Huns, the Russians, the Frecnh, the Prussians, The Austrian-Hungarians, the Germans, the Macedonians, the Serbs, the Kosovars, the Albanians, the Bosnian-Herzegovians, the Croats, the Roms, the.... the humans ?

What is the expiry date that you consider reasonnable to think a slaughter can be transformed into "historical fact" ?

3.Kemal also caused genocides vs Armenian and Greeks.And under his name,today's generals keep killing Kurds and Cypriots!

Indeed, I mentionned specific points that were positive for Suleiman Kemal Attatürk ; I did not mentionned the negative points ; I considered that these points had been sufficiently treated in other posts. My point was to indicate that the turks had introduced voting rights for women earlier then most of the so-called civilisated European countries. It's just a fact !

Genocides are indeed horrible. The turks need to make efforts on the recognition of this point, as the Germans did earlier ; but other nations should also make efforts : France should recognise the genocides of Algerians, of he massacres of the minorities within and outside France, UK should also admit the massacres in their old colonies, Spain and Portugal in South-America, United States commit war crimes by launching two nuclear bombs on civil targets (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), ...

Are other examples necessary ; is the solution to the armenian genocide to say No to Turkey ? Are they other ways ?

4.If I was a Turk I would push my goverment to take the control of the state by the army and stop causing troubles to its neighbours.

You know indeed that the Army has a strong influence in Turkey. The democratisation process, pushed by the hopes to enter the EU, will certainly decrease its influence.

5.About Cyprus,if EU and USA did in Cyprus the same thing they did in Iraq and Kuwait or in Yugoslavia,Turks wouldn't be there.Think about it.Justice is blind?Would you say the same if Germany had invaded France 30 years ago and hold a part of your country by force,despite the UN desicions and then wanted to enter EU?Lowering the tensions?Look at the picks above!Did you see a mosque burned in Komotini?Did you see a Greek attacking a mouftis?Did you see anyone from the muslim minority in Thrace chased like they did in 1955 and 1974 in Konstantinoupolis to us?Do you want me to send you a daily report on Athens and Nicosia FIR violations by turkish planes?

Indeed, Greeks are certainly examples to be followed by everyone : they are so perfect that I am ashamed to dare to answer your post and to believe that looking back to the past forever does not solve a situation. Again, saying NO to Turkey will not favour geopolitical stabilisation in the Aegean Sea area.

6.Or 70.000.000 potentional workers in our smaller countries.Or even worse factories moving there.

Believe me you overestimate the working force of Turkey : 70.000.000 inhabitants never mean 70.000.000 workers ! Furthermore, people tend to stay in their home country ; they even tend to stay in their home province, and even they tend to stay in their home town. Population start to move when there are disasters, such as famine, wars and poorness. When the economy runs well, the immigration ceases. My grand-mother was Italian, she immigrated in difficult times for Italy, as million Italians did. Italy is now a country with "immigration" flow, while having spread for half a century its population over the world... Why wouldn't it be similar for Turkey ?

7.I thought that all member-states were equal in EU.If Turkey didn't recognize France as a country,would France accept them in EU?

My point 7 was "Europe is diversity". I do not get your answer ; obviously, there is no doubt that if Turkey is allowed to join the EU, they will need to recognise all Member-states. Now, let's admit that the partition of Cyprus is a fact since 30 years. Can you simply forget this partition suddenly ? Don't you believe that the political sytem in Cyprus will have to face this (cruel) reality ? It needs a pragmatic approach : the system in Cyrpus will not be the one before the partition - it will not be the one during the partition ; but it will require political imagination to find a political system for "after the partition". In these circumstances, BOTH Turks and Greeks will need to make some efforts.

Seems that you had some troubles in your neighbourhood recently though.Those people that considered as slaves in your former colonies are now living in ghettos outside Paris.So don't say anything about second class people again.

Obviously, you really have not read correctly my post. I live in a country where I have no voting rights for central elections : I am not responsible for the political choice made in France for the past 50 years.

Contrary to what can be stated in International media, the riots in the suburbs are not related to religion (I have heard Fox news speaking of muslim riots ). There is no political message that justify the riots.

I personnaly deeply regret that not enough Black or Muslim or Asian minority group are present in the French Media or the French Government, or in the employment. But it is not only in France. I often have the opportunity to join meetings in the European Commission for my job : the only "coloured" people present in the buildings of the European Commission are often people intended to clean the floor or to serve coffee in meeting rooms. Everybody needs to make efforts to solve a deep-rooted racism in our white community.

[milanocapitale]

Phaseolus, for mediterranean countries there is a different sense of "honour", a different way to do politics.U cannot accept at your "table" a man who demonstrated to be against u.Maybe is a narrow minded way to manage politics but is a part of our way of life, so I think it's too early to accept them in Europe because they are "fighting "with a member of our "community".This is a mechanism of politics very old, I do understand Tiverius, so I can say: If they don't put their mind in the condition to be in peace with all the members of my family I won't accept them in my home just to respect a member of my family.

About racism:turkish are really racist against arabians and black people, I think we cannot accept lessons from them in that field.

I still pray for an Europe as a community of free people not decided by the Burocrats of Bruxelles(u know it).
PEACE

[milanocapitale]

I still believe that to accept them is a new form of colonialsm!

[groentje]

It did work for other countries. Even mediterranean ones. Why wouldn't it work for the current EU-countries and Turkey?

And didn't someone said: don't look for the splinter in another one's eye, before you have removed yours, or something the like?

[Dakkus]

Phaseolus, for mediterranean countries there is a different sense of "honour", a different way to do politics.U cannot accept at your "table" a man who demonstrated to be against u.Maybe is a narrow minded way to manage politics but is a part of our way of life, so I think it's too early to accept them in Europe because they are "fighting "with a member of our "community".This is a mechanism of politics very old, I do understand Tiverius, so I can say: If they don't put their mind in the condition to be in peace with all the members of my family I won't accept them in my home just to respect a member of my family.

About racism:turkish are really racist against arabians and black people, I think we cannot accept lessons from them in that field.

I still pray for an Europe as a community of free people not decided by the Burocrats of Bruxelles(u know it).
PEACE

Isn't it quite self-clear that they won't be accepted as long as they are "fighting"? I don't think there's one single MEP or EU-Commission bureaucrat who thinks Turkey should join the EU even if it doesn't stop its current rahter hostile actions.
However, not accepting Turkey in its current form doesn't mean we can't even talk with them at all.

[Phaseolus]

Phaseolus, for mediterranean countries there is a different sense of "honour", a different way to do politics.

Is France not a Mediterrean country ?

My Italian grand-mother doesn't make me a Mediterrean ?



Please define "Mediterrean ?"

[milanocapitale]

I have never understood if french people is mediterranean...

[milanocapitale]

It did work for other countries. Even mediterranean ones. Why wouldn't it work for the current EU-countries and Turkey?

And didn't someone said: don't look for the splinter in another one's eye, before you have removed yours, or something the like?

colonialism has been a plague:it didn't work at all!

[lozingaro]

.. Istanbul è la Porta d'Oriente!
Istanbul è Turchia è Europa ed è anche Asia,
tutto dipende da quale lato la vediamo.
Se da sù attraversiamo il Bosforo è Oriente. Semplice.

Allora benvenuta in Europa, e benvunuti in Asia!

MA RICORDIAMOCI DI CIPRO! RITORNERA' GRECA?

Istanbul is the door for the Orient!
Istanbul is Turkey is Europe but is also Asia,
If you look it from the west side is Europe, if we across
the bridge is Asia! Simple!

Welcome in Europe and Welcome to Asia!

BUT REMEMBER CIPRO! WHEN RETURN GREECE?

[ART]

Isn't therefore simple: the problem isn't only Turkey but above all the EU and your much low inner solidity regarding the dimensions. To increase without before to strengthen means to "melt" in a simple area of free exchange.

[ART]

MA RICORDIAMOCI DI CIPRO! RITORNERA' GRECA?

Cipro non è mai stata greca: al massimo è quando Cipro nord tornerà a Cipro... ^^"