Turkey in Europe?

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Should Turkey join the European Union?

Yes!
55
25%
No !
162
75%
 
Total votes: 217

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milanocapitale
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Post by milanocapitale » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:41 am

I still hope freedom for every country and people to lead themselves alone, free on a free field, that's a romantic dream that is still a dream in 2005.
-THE ThREAD DIGGER-
Passi per quello sfigato di Marin, passi per quella zoccola della Bruni, passi per una fabbrica di debito come Alitalia ma EBT NO!(Manadou sta gran zoccola)
IO NON SONO MARINARETTO

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Re: La Porta d'Oriente!

Post by lozingaro » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:53 am

ART wrote:
lozingaro wrote: MA RICORDIAMOCI DI CIPRO! RITORNERA' GRECA?
Cipro non è mai stata greca: al massimo è quando Cipro nord tornerà a Cipro... ^^"
I'm sorry... io ho sempre saputo che l'isola è divisa in due:
turco-cipriota e greco-cipriota. Se non ricordo male il casino che hanno montato ( e che esiste realmente) riguarda la riunificazione dell'isola come stato sovrano? Ma i ciprioti non si sentono più greci che turchi?
Dipende da che lato loro vivono la situazione del Paese?
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groentje
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Post by groentje » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:46 pm

Hmm, I understand a little bit of Italian, but to be sure of what is said, could you please translate it into English?

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Post by ART » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:49 pm

"I have always known that the island is divided in two: Turk-cipriota and Greek-cipriota. If memory badly the great confusion that they have mounted (and that really exists) does not regard the re-unification of the island like sovereign state? But the cipriots don't feel more Greeks that Turkish? It depends from that side they live the situation of the Country?"

Sorry, I reply in Italian because my english is insufficient.

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Re: La Porta d'Oriente!

Post by ART » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:00 pm

lozingaro wrote: I'm sorry... io ho sempre saputo che l'isola è divisa in due:
turco-cipriota e greco-cipriota. Se non ricordo male il casino che hanno montato ( e che esiste realmente) riguarda la riunificazione dell'isola come stato sovrano? Ma i ciprioti non si sentono più greci che turchi?
Dipende da che lato loro vivono la situazione del Paese?
No, Cipro è già sovrano ma gli abitanti parlano greco al sud e turco al nord, quindi è ovvio che si sentano culturalmente più vicini ai greci i primi e ai turchi i secondi. La parte nord si è autoproclamata Repubblica Turca di Cipro Nord ma è riconosciuta solo dalla Turchia: è formalmente sovrana ma in realtà condizionata pesantemente dalla Turchia.
Si tratta di unire le due parti in una federazione ma la cosa non è affatto semplice.

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Post by Tiverius » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:09 am

But that's not the point. Turkey isn't close of entering the Union, because of their militarism, their hostility against minorities, their muscular language in general, and against Greece in particular, and a number of other things, their economical position, to name just one. But do you honestly believe, that Turkey outside the Union will help us further? I don't believe so... Only by giving them a real chance, by letting them join the EU when they're ready, and that means, accepting the 'acquis communautaire', the entire European legislation, on human rights, democracy, environment, etc, and the official borders of the EU.
If, however, Turkey refuses to accept these simple rules, they don't want to pay the price of joining. But let's give Turkey the chance to do.
So we do agree in some of my points.Our difference is in timing.Our goverment supported Turkey in talks without anything for excange (Austria's refusal bend with the promise for Croatia's entrance).We want a step of good will now.
The only reason why you joined the EU is because the EU feared that Greece would fall into the hands of the Communist Block...
This issue solved with the five year old civil war of 1944-1949 that caused by our western allies (UK mostly) vs the communist rebels of ELAS that resist to the nazis.Learn about the December incidents and you will see your mistake.About the bad control of economy,we are the first that suffer from that.I must remind you of course,that while you were rebuilding your countries we had that civil war,many communist Greeks chased to eastern Europe countries or exiled to the lovely islands of Makronissos and Giaros.Till 1974 for any work with the state you had to carry a special paper issued by the police,assuring that you were not a communist.Secondly all countries doesn't have the same natural resourses and of course we didn't have any colony to steal like many european countries did.I won't of course answer to your insult and myth of hard workers.Look here:Eurostat
Is EU a defense for religions (which one(s) ?) or is it a threat ?
I only say that EU respects all nations,languages,cultures and religions (EU money given to restore monasteries in Mount Athos).Turkey doesn't respect our religion by attacking the Patriarchy and not letting the Halki School to reopen.
What is the expiry date that you consider reasonnable to think a slaughter can be transformed into "historical fact" ?
The expell of Greeks in 1955 and 1974 from Konstantinoupolis,Imbros and Tenedos,without a recognition of that mistake (minorities protected from Laussane treaty signed by Turks too,you know) and without a refund for the lost of fortunes and of course the invasion in Cyprus is not considered as a "historical fact".At least not here.
is the solution to the armenian genocide to say No to Turkey ? Are they other ways ?
The turkish policies still based in Kemal's "wisdom" and the article "Turkey to turkish".That's why they chase Kurds and that's why our minority in Konstantinoupolis is 2000 people from 500000 in the fifties (while the muslim minority in Komotini reached 200000 from 30000).In that point I agree with you about our "high level of diplomacy".Maybe we should have follow the turkish type of "diplomacy".What do you think of that?
You know indeed that the Army has a strong influence in Turkey. The democratisation process, pushed by the hopes to enter the EU, will certainly decrease its influence.
As I said above,I agree with that but we have to see a good will sign now.We gave a friendship hand to Turkey several times (A.Papandreou-Ozal in Davos after the Piri Reis incidents,The "earthquakes" diplomacy and several other I can remind you).But here we have start to believe that the more we bend,the more they try to f... us.We are not causing the troubles.

saying NO to Turkey will not favour geopolitical stabilisation in the Aegean Sea area.
We asked many time to solve,what Turkey things as a problem in the Aegean Sea,to the international courts.We have all the treaties and papers saying what exactly belong to our country (and EU,I should remind you,but unfortunately there is no common defense policy).Even Imia are mentioned in treaties.In that case,Turkey answers,as I have dozen times said,with FIR violations.So,wherever say no or yes,as long as Turkey ruled by the generals,they'll keep doing the same.
Population start to move when there are disasters, such as famine, wars and poorness. When the economy runs well, the immigration ceases. My grand-mother was Italian, she immigrated in difficult times for Italy, as million Italians did.
All three exist in Turkey at the moment.And of course economy is not in good shape at the moment.There is not only the Turkey of Konstantinoupolis and Ankara and Smirna.Deep in Asia there r many that would love to find their cousins e.g. in Germany.They can't do that now.Population also move when the army orders them like they did in Cyprus (and possibly will do in the greek islands if they join EU,it's easy to send 2000 Turks to the 300 souls island of Kastelorizo,changing the population,and above all legally).Greeks also immigrated in western Europe in our difficult years after the war but always legal and always invited before EU creation.
My point 7 was "Europe is diversity". I do not get your answer ; obviously, there is no doubt that if Turkey is allowed to join the EU, they will need to recognise all Member-states. Now, let's admit that the partition of Cyprus is a fact since 30 years. Can you simply forget this partition suddenly ? Don't you believe that the political sytem in Cyprus will have to face this (cruel) reality ? It needs a pragmatic approach : the system in Cyrpus will not be the one before the partition - it will not be the one during the partition ; but it will require political imagination to find a political system for "after the partition". In these circumstances, BOTH Turks and Greeks will need to make some efforts
Diversity has limits i think.About Cyprus the right thing to do,in my mind,is to return to 1960 constitution signed by Turkey,Greece and UK.Why not?And of course not the Annan (USA actually) plan,that would turn Cyprus into a protectorat (any dispute would be solved in a 9 member court,3 Turk-cypriots,3 Greek-Cypriots and 3 foreigners appointed by UN!Ever seen that?) and 15% of Turk-cypriots having same representation with 85% of Greek-Cypriots.Turkish army had a reason to invade in the island (Samson dictatorship caused by CIA cause they feared that Makarios would be the Kastro of the Mediterrenean as Kissinger said),but that reason does not exist anymore.Anyway,two communities can live together and solve very quick their problems,if we and Turkey (and USA of course) stop involving.But that requires the departure of Turkish army and turkish emigrants from the island.This is the only way to make a true dialogue.If you have a gun in my head,I would do whatever you asked me to.Don't you thing?

Obviously, you really have not read correctly my post. I live in a country where I have no voting rights for central elections : I am not responsible for the political choice made in France for the past 50 years.
Sorry,you are right
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ART
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Post by ART » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:39 pm

Turkish religion, Turkish economy, Turkish politic...

The first problem is the ugly condition of European unity! In the first place strengthening and then an eventual enlargement.

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Post by groentje » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:05 pm

ART wrote:The first problem is the ugly condition of European unity! In the first place strengthening and then an eventual enlargement.
Now, this is an argument I can fall for... I believe too, that the EU should modernize it's structure. A European Constitution could help that, although the proposed one was far from sufficient (and far from democratic enough).

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Post by milanocapitale » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:37 pm

the european constitution was aseptical and "cold", not good to warm euopeans's souls in this way, I agree w u!
-THE ThREAD DIGGER-
Passi per quello sfigato di Marin, passi per quella zoccola della Bruni, passi per una fabbrica di debito come Alitalia ma EBT NO!(Manadou sta gran zoccola)
IO NON SONO MARINARETTO

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Post by ART » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:11 am

The "Constitution" doesn't exist: the "European constitution" is a simple treaty that doesn't introduce real important innovationes and that the State leaders have had the foolish idea to call "Constitution". A lot other is necessary to support seriously the European process of integration.

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Post by lazza » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:13 pm

I can't believe the overwhelming feeling is against Turkey joining the EU.

In my view it is simple: if Turkey meets all the requirements for EU membership then they should be allowed to join. Historical, religious, cultural and (to a certain extent) geographical arguments should not be an issue. Look at Hawaii....

Vive la difference!

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Post by ART » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:43 pm

lazza wrote: if Turkey meets all the requirements for EU membership then they should be allowed to join.
The EU doesn't meets all the requirements for the enlargement.

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Post by milanocapitale » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:54 am

A strange aggression occurred to Switzerland football team by Turkish team, another point to analize...Swiss Players said that turkish policemen too fought against them instead of protect them and made the situation under control.
-THE ThREAD DIGGER-
Passi per quello sfigato di Marin, passi per quella zoccola della Bruni, passi per una fabbrica di debito come Alitalia ma EBT NO!(Manadou sta gran zoccola)
IO NON SONO MARINARETTO

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Post by tabbs » Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:25 pm

ART wrote:the "European constitution" is a simple treaty that doesn't introduce real important innovationes and that the State leaders have had the foolish idea to call "Constitution".
Well, it was called a "Treaty Establishing a Constitution", ie. a treaty. :D But the treaty proposed by the European Convention after years of consultations and compromises, and ultimately agreed upon by the heads of state/government, is dead in the water now anyway. And I assume that any attempt to replace it with a new one, whoever would suggest such a "new and improved" version, will similarly fail. It always takes only one of the twenty-five (or soon more) member states to vote No as the Dutch and French did this time.

Christian

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Post by micdab » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:39 am

Interesting poll results:
http://euobserver.com/9/20450
I think the reasons are obvious: people are naturally scared by cultures different than their own. The Russian/Ukrainaian cultures are much closer to the European mainstream than are Turkish customs.
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