Turkey in Europe?

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Should Turkey join the European Union?

Yes!
55
25%
No !
162
75%
 
Total votes: 217

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Aaron
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Post by Aaron » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:48 am

groentje wrote:20 or so years ago we thought the same of Spain, Portugal, Ireland or Greece. Now, these countries are florishing.
Errrr... Are they? :roll: I do not agree with you, apart from Ireland which used its EU support sensibly on education, not on useless motorways or stupid infrastructure projects. But yes, I believe Czech Republic, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland and Estonia will, sooner or later, bring more money to the union than they consume. Most of the new members are old industrialised cultures with high education.
groentje wrote:Only 10 years ago, we thought Germany would stay Europe's main motor. So I don't agree that a country can't ameliorize it's situation in a reasonable time.
I think Germany still is the main motor (and sponsor!) of the EU economy.
groentje wrote:Plus, the EU isn't just an economical co-operation, it's a project for the future, and a bit of solidarity is necessary.
Exactly. But this solidarity has to be funded somehow.
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Post by Boudie » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:19 pm

Groentje wrote:I think Germany still is the main motor (and sponsor!) of the EU economy.
http://www.referaty.sk/index.php?referat=8364

This link shows this paragraph:
"Through cohesion policy, there are significant fiscal transfers through the EU budget from taxpayers in the wealthier regions of the EU (in Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Austria, northern Italy, the Paris basin, southern Germany, the south of England and southern Scandinavia) to the four cohesion states (Ireland, Portugal, Greece and Spain) and the poorer regions in the wealthier states (particularly Southern Italy and Eastern Germany)."

So as you can see Germany indeed is a sponser of the EU. But not the most important sponsor. Since East-Germany joined the EU in the '90 Germany contributes but also recieves great amouns of money!

As you can see in this link Holland has to pay most of the money for the enlargement per capita because Norway is not a part of the EU.

http://www.grondweteuropa.nl/9326000/1f ... mie350ziw6

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groentje
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Post by groentje » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:01 pm

Aaron wrote:
groentje wrote:20 or so years ago we thought the same of Spain, Portugal, Ireland or Greece. Now, these countries are florishing.
Errrr... Are they? :roll: I do not agree with you, apart from Ireland which used its EU support sensibly on education, not on useless motorways or stupid infrastructure projects. But yes, I believe Czech Republic, Slovenia, Hungary, Poland and Estonia will, sooner or later, bring more money to the union than they consume. Most of the new members are old industrialised cultures with high education.
When for instance Spain was a poor country, only 30 years ago, Spain has improved a lot. There were a lot of people who lived in places with no electricity, water, and so on. That has changed, surely. I agree it isn't the richest country of the EU, but large areas in South-France aren't either. Situation is comparable. I only want to say, that the situation can change, the south of Belgium is poor as well, since all the mines and practically all the heavy industry left there. But I wouldn't be to surprised if in some time Wallonia would be more prosperous than Flanders.
Aaron wrote:
groentje wrote:Only 10 years ago, we thought Germany would stay Europe's main motor. So I don't agree that a country can't ameliorize it's situation in a reasonable time.
I think Germany still is the main motor (and sponsor!) of the EU economy.
groentje wrote:Plus, the EU isn't just an economical co-operation, it's a project for the future, and a bit of solidarity is necessary.
Exactly. But this solidarity has to be funded somehow.
I agree entirely. Yet I'm probably a bit more willing to pay, hence our difference in opinion.

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Post by Olivier » Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:19 pm

Osku-82 wrote:So sad that the US is supporting Turkey in this case. Well, it is a great country (the US!) but their foreign policy is bullcrap!
I wonder why the USA support the membership of Turkey... What is their interest? :?:

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Post by Boudie » Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:26 pm

Olivier wrote:I wonder why the USA support the membership of Turkey... What is their interest? :?:
Because the USA wants to get more stability in the Middle East. When Turkey is a part of the EU, they surely will be allies with the western countries.
And Turkey has some attractive airbases to improve the power of the USA in the Middle East.

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Olivier
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Post by Olivier » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:05 pm

Boudie wrote:
Olivier wrote:I wonder why the USA support the membership of Turkey... What is their interest? :?:
Because the USA wants to get more stability in the Middle East. When Turkey is a part of the EU, they surely will be allies with the western countries.
And Turkey has some attractive airbases to improve the power of the USA in the Middle East.
Turkey has been member of NATO for decades...

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Lucaz
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Post by Lucaz » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:30 pm

Hm, they're so many Turkeys (do I write that good?)
in the netherlands, so why not? :?

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Post by Craft » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:48 pm

Lucaz wrote:...Turkeys (do I write that good?)
Hee, not quite :) It should be Turks. (Turkeys = several of those big birds that many people eat during Christmas.)

Anyway, what you meant is clear.

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Post by Tiverius » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:05 pm

CCCP wrote:i personnaly think Turkey should join Europe :!:
Tell that when a million hungry Turks from Anatolia arrive to Vandaa and ask for a job!
Hm, they're so many Turkeys (do I write that good?)
in the netherlands, so why not?
You don't even know what so many Turks means!They'll flood Europe!
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groentje
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Post by groentje » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:45 am

Those hungry Anatolians will come even if Turkey doesn't join the EU, even more, if part of the EU, there are more incentives possible to activate local industry, agriculture... like also Greece received (Greece wasn't that much richer than Turkey is now, some decades ago), or Portugal, Spain, like Poland or Hungary are receiving now too.
Plus, only a year ago, people were scared that all those Eastern Europeans would emigrate to the richer West. If I look around, I see very few emigrants from the new countries.
I feel that you are very scared, but fear is not a good advisor.

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Post by pinguino79 » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:24 pm

If anyone fears a flood of Turk immigrants, there's nothing to be scared, at least for the first years: old members will be allowed to boycott migration flows from Turkey (as is happening now with 8 out of 10 new countries).
I would actually be VERY careful before accepting Turkey in EU...
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Tiverius
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Post by Tiverius » Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:28 am

I can not accept,that for so many decades we keep the Turks out of our country (and Europe) with the arms and if they join the EU,they can just settle to my country legaly.
Do you know Kastelorizo?About 200 Greeks live there and Turks always wanted this tiny island.Who can guaranty to me that two or three or four thousand Turks won't get there?Can you?
Who can stop that 5.000.000 Turks in Germany to bring a cousin for work and double their number there and above all LEGALY?
Do you know that EVERY DAY several Turkish F16 violate Athens FIR?
Do you know that Turkey doesn't recognize the republic of Cyprus?How can u become a member of a union,when you don't recognize a member and that member must agree for your entrance?Don't you see it is crazy?
How can you become a member of EU when your army has illegaly(according to UN security council) invade in a member state?
And don't say I am scared!We were never scared of them!We fought against them and protect our country and our continent several times.Belgium is too far to know!
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groentje
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Post by groentje » Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:46 pm

The EU is also a peace project. For centuries, the French have fought against the Germans, to keep them out of France (not always as successful), for decades, people in nowadays Belgium fought against the Spanish, the Austrians, the French and the Dutch. But now, they work together in the EU (sometimes :wink: ), and if there are differences, we don't use weapons anymore. Perhaps Belgium is to far away to understand, but after centuries of war, we don't like it, anymore. If Greece wants war, it will be without the EU, I can assure you.
If Turkey would join the EU, they have to oblige to that status quo. If Turks come to live in the EU, as you pointed it out, it will be legally, so what's the problem? Your exemple of Kastelorizo, if a Turk buys land, he may very well live there. It will be however a piece of Greece, he lives in. So what's your problem?
But tell me, why would Turkey send out his sons (and daughters) to the EU, if they are needed at home? Turkey needs the Turks more than Germay does. :twisted: . :wink: If you would come to Belgium, it would be totally legally as well. Tell me, what's the difference between you and a Turk? I only thought you are already an inhabitant of the EU, Turks aren't (yet).
Cyprus is a problem, I agree. But sorry, I have as much faith in the version of Greek Cypriots as in that of the Turk Cypriots. It's a problem, that has to be solved by the Cypriots themselves, and last, it wasn't Turkey that had a problem. Plus, I thought Turkey recognises Cyprus partially? Everything that's not North-Cyprus is Cyprus :wink: . A small difference to me. I'm sure, if the Turk Cypriots want the Turkish army to leave, it will leave.

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Post by Tiverius » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:23 pm

Turkey is always hostile against us.They always want a small piece of the Aegean sea (There is oil there).The threaten us with war if we extend our naval control in 12 miles which according international treaties is our right to do so.We request to go to Hague about this subject and they refused.
Unions are not forever as we know from history,especially those who conclude many differences (and yes,i am much different from a Turk or a Belgian in several ways).There is the recent example of Yugoslavia.
If the union breaks who will kick the Turks out of Kastelorizo?Not you as you said ("If Greece wants war, it will be without the EU, I can assure you.").They will be majority by then.Of course,nobody wants war,but if someone threatens us we are ready for it (proved against the nazis and Italians in the 40s,when we resist over a year officially and four years with rebellion groups,or in the Imia incident a few years ago).Don't forget that our national anthem entitled "Hymn to Eleftheria=freedom".
So it's not a problem for you if 16 or 20 German or Dutch F-16 fly over your town?Well,it is to me.
Republic of Cyprus which is the only official state of the island (according to UN and all countries in the world,apart Turkey) wants a solution but a fair one.Anan plan was saying that the Turkish minority of 10% will have equal represantation in governing the country,which is unfair to me for the 90%.It was also saying that there will be a 9-member court that will decide for any disaggrement.This court will be of 3 greek-cypriots,3 turk-cypriots and 3 foreigner!Excellent plan!Would you like a Greek or a Nigerian or a Russian decide what is fair for the two groups living in Belgium?And yes,it wasn't Turkey that had the problem,but it was Turkey which caused the problem.
If you don't understand or these are not problems to you,then thing of something else.Turkey is not a Democracy.Army,according to their constitution,is responsible for keeping the state in Kemal's plan.Army can anytime replace the prime minister or torture anyone of a minority if his beliefs are not the same with the common Turk.For example,the official Greek minority people,recognized since the Balkan wars,in Konstantinoupolis and the islands of Imbros and Tenedos was attacked,their houses and bussiness burn and they finally expelled without anything.That happened in the 50s.The Muslim minority in Thrace has grown to about 200.000 souls,while the Greek minority there is limited to about 2.000.And the numbers were opposite.Same thing happened in Cyprus and against the Kurds.I thought that EU really cared about human rights and equallity....
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Post by groentje » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:50 pm

I don't say it's an easy discussion, or an easy settlement. And yes, many things can be said over Turkey, and there state of democracy. But situations can change, for the better and for the worse. I fear, that a refusal will sooner lead to worsening of the situation, an acceptance the opposite. Maybe I'm naïeve, but I see the EU as an ideal, not a Utopia, but still. Can I then refuse a country to enter to that ideal? No, if it obeys to the acceptance rules of the EU. And many times, the rules have been bent, to allow a country to enter even sooner, I'm against that in the case of Turkey. But if legislation is all in order with the EU, if the level of corruption isn't to high (and that counts for other countries as well), why not?
A condition to enter the EU, may well be an obligation to settle things with Greece, and in Cyprus, to agree with more rights for minorities. I strongly believe that this is more helpful, than trying to negiotiate with a partner, that can never become a full partner.

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