Stamped notes

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Montgomery Burns
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Re: Stamped notes

Post by Montgomery Burns » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:00 pm

Well, there was that email from the ECB all that time ago, which has served as the official answer to the question "is it illegal?"

https://www.eurobilltracker.com/faq/ind ... 3;mark=1#1

So, no it's not illegal, but, predictably, frowned upon by the ECB. There there's the matter of national legislation and practices/habits in each country.

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:11 pm

lmviterbo wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:34 pm
TheUndertaker wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:32 pm
The German NCB doesnt destory notes with (small? ) stamps i saw NCB Bundel of :note-500: one note had 2x stamps it passed the control
I just searched the relevant European legislation and in fact couldn't spot any directive clearly stating what I claimed (that stamped — as well as otherly damaged — notes should be sent to NCBs for withdrawal and destruction). I believe (without any substantial proof) that this is — or at least was up to some time ago — common practice. I may be wrong, and I am sorry if I am.
Looking after that, l came across a document that describes a few regulations concerning scribbling or other defects that could make a banknote not suitable for circulation.

On page 11, table 1, there's a dedcription of such "defects", and specifically, numbers 1, 2 & 3 describe dirtyness, spots and inscriptions/writings/scribblings, or, as it reads in the english version, "graffitti".

http://www.ecb.europa.eu/ecb/legal/pdf/ ... 010020.pdf

This is the document. In the middle of the block of numbers at the end, there are two letters. I wrote the link with the letters "en" that show the document in english. (although it will display shortened by EBT server). But if you copy and paste the full address, you can change those letters and recrive the document in

fr = french
it = italian
el = greek
de = german

and so on. If you read later on page 12, points 1 & 2 you'll see that there are different ways of describing how "dirty" or "spotted" or "soilt" a banknote can be, but in point 3 it states that

"At present there is no mandatory requirement to detect graffiti."

I do also stamp some of my bills, and I've had a few hits thanks to that. When I started to do that I was hoping that more people would be interested in "developing" our hobby, but the truth is that my "stamp hitters" seldom logged more than "THE BILL" with the stamp, or, in few cases one more or a bunch, and never again. But some of these "one hit wonder" are 9 months, 15 months or even 27 months apart. They have OBVIOUSLY NOT been retired from circulation.

This is a legend. Banknotes cost money (35¢ for each 5€ banknote, for example) and they will not be retired if paper and safety measures are in good condition. It also means, off course, NOT STAMPING or writing on sensible areas such as microprintings, watermarks, double-sided impressions, filigranas or eurion constellations. In another matter, by the way, obverse of fivers and teens, and printed areas, also on the reverse, have a treatement that rejects liquid (ink) absorption, that's why I NEVER stamp anywhere else than neutral parts of the reverse's white area.

Hope I helped a bit.

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by lmviterbo » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:55 pm

Thanks for the input, Jordi.
JordiJanTaxi wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:11 pm
On page 11, table 1, there's a dedcription of such "defects", and specifically, numbers 1, 2 & 3 describe dirtyness, spots and inscriptions/writings/scribblings, or, as it reads in the english version, "graffitti".
In respect to this point alone, I must notice that the part of text you quoted regards specifically the minimum standards for automated fitness checking of Euro banknotes.

On the same Decision of the ECB, the next Annex deals with the minimum standards for manual checking.

In the following paragraphs, I'm quoting the latest consolidated version of this document, from 21/09/2012 (all languages here). I'm adding some orange-red emphasis on the most relevant parts:
Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Decision:
[…]
11. ‘Unfit euro banknotes’ means euro banknotes which are evaluated as unsuitable for recirculation following the fitness checking referred to in Article 6.

Article 6
Detection of unfit euro banknotes
1. Manual fitness checking shall be carried out in accordance with the minimum standards laid down in Annex III.
2. Automated fitness checking shall be carried out by a successfully tested banknote handling machine according to the minimum standards which are published on the ECB’s website and amended from time to time.
3. An NCB may, after informing the ECB, lay down stricter standards for one or more denominations or series of euro banknotes if this is justified, for example by a deterioration in the quality of the euro banknotes in circulation in its Member State. These stricter standards shall be published on that NCB’s website.
4. Unfit euro banknotes shall be handed over to an NCB in consideration of national regulations.

ANNEX III
MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR MANUAL FITNESS CHECKING OF EURO BANKNOTES
This Annex lays down minimum standards for manual fitness checking of euro banknotes by trained staff members.
In the course of the fitness checks, euro banknotes with any defect as set out in the table below, or with a clearly noticeable defect in one of the visible security features, are unfit. However, folded euro banknotes and euro banknotes with folded corners may be rectified by manual unfolding where possible. The fitness checks are carried out by a visual inspection of the individual euro banknotes and do not require the use of any tools.
List of sorting criteria for manual fitness checking
[…]
3. Graffiti Visually noticeable added image or lettering written or marked in any manner on a euro banknote
[…]

The above Decision (as per Article 1. Scope) "lays down common rules and procedures on the authenticity and fitness checking and recirculation of euro banknotes under Article 6(1) of Regulation (EC) No 1338/2001."

So here follows the relevant text on the latest consolidated version of Regulation (EC) No 1338/2001:
Article 6
Obligations relating to credit institutions engaged in the processing and distribution to the public of notes and coins
1. Credit institutions, and, within the limits of their payment activity, other payment service providers, and any other institutions engaged in the processing and distribution to the public of notes and coins, including:
— establishments whose activity consists in exchanging notes and coins of different currencies, such as bureaux de change,
— transporters of funds,
— other economic agents such as traders and casinos engaged on a secondary basis in the processing and distribution to the public of notes via automated teller machines (cash dispensers), within the limit of these secondary activities,
shall be obliged to ensure that euro notes and coins which they have received and which they intend to put back into circulation are checked for authenticity and that counterfeits are detected.
For euro notes, this check shall be carried out in line with procedures defined by the ECB.
[…]

In sum, what I said before is in fact official policy: if a bank (or any other institution dealing with banknotes) is handled a stamped note, it should be sent to the NCB as unfit for circulation.

The European legislation leaves some margin for national weaks. I have no idea if any country or national central bank provided different regulations in respect to stamped notes, or graffiti in general. If not, and ifsome staff members opt not to hand over stamped to an NCB, they are clearly disrespecting the official directives.

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:28 pm

lmviterbo wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:55 pm
Thanks for the input, Jordi.
JordiJanTaxi wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:11 pm
On page 11, table 1, there's a dedcription of such "defects", and specifically, numbers 1, 2 & 3 describe dirtyness, spots and inscriptions/writings/scribblings, or, as it reads in the english version, "graffitti".
In respect to this point alone, I must notice that the part of text you quoted regards specifically the minimum standards for automated fitness checking of Euro banknotes.

On the same Decision of the ECB, the next Annex deals with the minimum standards for manual checking.

In the following paragraphs, I'm quoting the latest consolidated version of this document, from 21/09/2012 (all languages here). I'm adding some orange-red emphasis on the most relevant parts:
Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Decision:
[…]
11. ‘Unfit euro banknotes’ means euro banknotes which are evaluated as unsuitable for recirculation following the fitness checking referred to in Article 6.

Article 6
Detection of unfit euro banknotes
1. Manual fitness checking shall be carried out in accordance with the minimum standards laid down in Annex III.
2. Automated fitness checking shall be carried out by a successfully tested banknote handling machine according to the minimum standards which are published on the ECB’s website and amended from time to time.
3. An NCB may, after informing the ECB, lay down stricter standards for one or more denominations or series of euro banknotes if this is justified, for example by a deterioration in the quality of the euro banknotes in circulation in its Member State. These stricter standards shall be published on that NCB’s website.
4. Unfit euro banknotes shall be handed over to an NCB in consideration of national regulations.

ANNEX III
MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR MANUAL FITNESS CHECKING OF EURO BANKNOTES
This Annex lays down minimum standards for manual fitness checking of euro banknotes by trained staff members.
In the course of the fitness checks, euro banknotes with any defect as set out in the table below, or with a clearly noticeable defect in one of the visible security features, are unfit. However, folded euro banknotes and euro banknotes with folded corners may be rectified by manual unfolding where possible. The fitness checks are carried out by a visual inspection of the individual euro banknotes and do not require the use of any tools.
List of sorting criteria for manual fitness checking
[…]
3. Graffiti Visually noticeable added image or lettering written or marked in any manner on a euro banknote
[…]

The above Decision (as per Article 1. Scope) "lays down common rules and procedures on the authenticity and fitness checking and recirculation of euro banknotes under Article 6(1) of Regulation (EC) No 1338/2001."

So here follows the relevant text on the latest consolidated version of Regulation (EC) No 1338/2001:
Article 6
Obligations relating to credit institutions engaged in the processing and distribution to the public of notes and coins
1. Credit institutions, and, within the limits of their payment activity, other payment service providers, and any other institutions engaged in the processing and distribution to the public of notes and coins, including:
— establishments whose activity consists in exchanging notes and coins of different currencies, such as bureaux de change,
— transporters of funds,
— other economic agents such as traders and casinos engaged on a secondary basis in the processing and distribution to the public of notes via automated teller machines (cash dispensers), within the limit of these secondary activities,
shall be obliged to ensure that euro notes and coins which they have received and which they intend to put back into circulation are checked for authenticity and that counterfeits are detected.
For euro notes, this check shall be carried out in line with procedures defined by the ECB.
[…]

In sum, what I said before is in fact official policy: if a bank (or any other institution dealing with banknotes) is handled a stamped note, it should be sent to the NCB as unfit for circulation.

The European legislation leaves some margin for national weaks. I have no idea if any country or national central bank provided different regulations in respect to stamped notes, or graffiti in general. If not, and ifsome staff members opt not to hand over stamped to an NCB, they are clearly disrespecting the official directives.
WOW!

Thanks a lot, Miguel. That's a whole research work.

These mechanical and manual inspection instructions remind me, however, of a conversation in the portuguese forum a couple of years ago. An employee of a casino in USA had some experience with stamped banknotes and their mechanical rejection and (supposed) destruction.

In all this documents you mention here, the instructions are to send the banknotes to National Banks. But (and I could be mistaken, and this could again be my personal mania) this DOES NOT NECESSARILY lead to "for destruction". My idea of the whole thing is that those banknotes maybe go for further inspection in any other way, manually, visually, by officials who maybe have more detailed instructions and finally decide to send them out again. Many answers to that casino employee were "I received a bunch of bills with a Federal Reserve Bank strap, and all (or most of) them had lots of stamps or scribblings". I am completely convinced that this is what happens (if such bills are sent to any National Bank) if any kind of marks do not deface any safety measures and paper is in good condition.

Finally, off course, when we say "stamps", I think of "my kind" of EBT/WsG stamp, and similar things that do not cover big surfaces, and are located in "neutral" areas of the paper, with just one line of small letters. Maybe some bills with a lot of scriptures, many and/or big stamps, can be considered unsuitable. But these are the least. Just my humble opinion.

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by DK28082 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:36 am

xja wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:32 pm
May I ask where are you going in Italy? I look forward to finding your notes.
Mainly Rome, and also planning an excursion from Naples for one day.

Thank you everyone for the information, I will consider ordering a small rubber stamp, otherwise I will rely on chance and hope that one day one of my bills is entered!

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 5:10 pm

.

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:46 pm

:flag-it:
Attachments
8A95BD0B-B153-4C62-AF3B-9BDA5A2EE130.jpeg
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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:51 pm

A48FD5F7-136B-43B6-8AE7-D604B832A306.jpeg
R002/X
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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:56 pm

78230AB5-7893-4021-8196-8F83D0D9DACD.jpeg
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A stamp from my bank

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm

EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpeg
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpeg (206.21 KiB) Viewed 121 times
Stamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:22 pm

TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpegStamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation
Why should they get rejected?

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:35 pm

JordiJanTaxi wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:22 pm
TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpegStamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation
Why should they get rejected?
Cuz ES1 and this ES2 Note has a tear

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by bumboozel » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:10 pm

TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpegStamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation

Nice Stamp. Let us know if this brings new people to the site. If this works I’ll stamp all my notes :wink:

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by TheUndertaker » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:09 pm

bumboozel wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:10 pm
TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpegStamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation

Nice Stamp. Let us know if this brings new people to the site. If this works I’ll stamp all my notes :wink:
Someone found it... a cashier which knows that I’m collecting and tracking notes

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Re: Stamped notes

Post by JordiJanTaxi » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:42 pm

TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:35 pm
JordiJanTaxi wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:22 pm
TheUndertaker wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm
EDFB3D22-F0A4-49C6-B09A-8AEF71563C89.jpegStamped some notes which would get rejected from circulation
Why should they get rejected?
Cuz ES1 and this ES2 Note has a tear
Being first series does not necessarily make bills elegible for circulation rejection. Many of us received 2002s from both ATMs and bank recirculators. As for the torn papers, I fix them with scotch tape (transparent adhesive) in the smallest possible amount. If you come across a bill fixed by me, you would probably never notice it.

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