In Brussels now

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:23 pm

Don't forget that Brussels was a Flemish city wich is now occupied by French-speakers. Mostly because of the immigrants from Africa, Asia and now Eastern Europe and... the eurocrats!

groentje · Post by **groentje** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:42 pm

Van Geel wrote:Don't forget that Brussels was a Flemish city wich is now occupied by French-speakers. Mostly because of the immigrants from Africa, Asia and now Eastern Europe and... the eurocrats!

Sorry, but that's not correct. The francophonizing started as soon as 1800, with the occupation by the French. Yet, a Flemish (Brabantic) dialect was widely spoken untill the 40ies of last century.
After WWI and II, Flemish had a bad reputation, and many Brusseleirs started to speak French. Flemish was the language of the collaborators

. Of course, this wasn't true, but the damage was done...
With the elections of 2003, only 7% of the Brussels population was Flemish, without the foreigners, EU and not-EU, it would still be only 10%.
(bron cijfers: www.gorik.be)

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:52 pm

groentje wrote:The francophonizing started as soon as 1800.

I know, in 1800 99% of the official documents were in the local Dutch dialect. So what I say ist true, you say it yourself: Brussels is a Flemish city wich is now occupied by French-speakers...

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:57 pm

groentje wrote:After WWI and II, Flemish had a bad reputation. Flemish was the language of the collaborators . Of course, this wasn't true, but the damage was done...

Important quote! The Flemish people were a victim of the war and just because our language looks like German the Walloon tried to give us a bad name as well. The FDF (a Walloon racist party who is against Flemish people) keep saying those lies till today.

groentje · Post by **groentje** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:31 pm

There were important collaborators among the Flemish, VNV, Verdinaso... And because of these few men, of course all Flemish were collaborators.

But many Flemish became francophone at that moment. At that moment, Brussels had already become a bilingual city, with many French speakers. The entire government was officially francophone, and only very slow, Dutch/Flemish regained importance.

So Brussels isn't occupied, the inhabitants are largely francophonized. That is not the same thing. Best exemple is Freddy Thielemans, the mayor of Brussels, speaks almost impeccably Flemish, but is officially a francophone.

milanocapitale · Post by **milanocapitale** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:00 pm

Van Geel wrote:
groentje wrote:After WWI and II, Flemish had a bad reputation. Flemish was the language of the collaborators . Of course, this wasn't true, but the damage was done...
Important quote! The Flemish people were a victim of the war and just because our language looks like German the Walloon tried to give us a bad name as well. The FDF (a Walloon racist party who is against Flemish people) keep saying those lies till today.

It is a typical tecnique for the racists to consider a part as all in order to condamn people they hate, it happensed with jews too in that period and the meachanism of "Contro-Information" has been a great instrument in nazi's hands

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:09 pm

groentje wrote:There were important collaborators among the Flemish, VNV, Verdinaso... And because of these few men, of course all Flemish were collaborators.

True offcourse but in Wallonia you had REX... Every country had their collaborators.

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:25 pm

The language situation in Brussels december 2005 (volle manen, paper of the members of the N-VA):

10% Dutch
10% bilingual (Dutch & French)
10% bilingual (foreign language & French)
20% other language (not Dutch or French but only a foreign language)
50% French

Allmost all of the bilingual "Brusselaars" (Dutch & French) are Flemmings, I think thats clear. So they make 20% of the total like I said before.

As you can see it's a very complex language situation in Brussels!

groentje · Post by **groentje** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:40 pm

Can you tell me where N-VA gets its figures? I do trust them to be correct, but since there hasn't been a census in quite a number of years in Belgium, I wonder where you can find these figures.

It sure is correct, that if only 7% of Brussels' population calls itself Flemish, there are not 93% Francophones in Brussels. The figures I talked about (I trust you checked out my source

), leave the option bilingual out. So you're or Flemish, or Francophone. Or a stranger, from a EU-country, or not.

And I doubt, that all those bilinguals D/F see themselves as Flemish. I guess, most of them see themselves as neither Flemish nor Francophone. I mean, if you come from a mixed family, why should you feel obliged to choose?

My source (a bit larger, now): www.gorik.be

Van Geel · Post by **Van Geel** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:47 pm

groentje wrote:Can you tell me where N-VA gets its figures? I do trust them to be correct, but since there hasn't been a census in quite a number of years in Belgium, I wonder where you can find these figures.

It sure is correct, that if only 7% of Brussels' population calls itself Flemish, there are not 93% Francophones in Brussels. The figures I talked about (I trust you checked out my source ), leave the option bilingual out. So you're or Flemish, or Francophone. Or a stranger, from a EU-country, or not.

And I doubt, that all those bilinguals D/F see themselves as Flemish. I guess, most of them see themselves as neither Flemish nor Francophone. I mean, if you come from a mixed family, why should you feel obliged to choose?

My source (a bit larger, now): www.gorik.be

I don't know where N-VA gets it's figures but if you really want to know: vollemanen@n-va.be

About the bilingual D/F Brusselaars, tha's only my personal interpretation... but I think more Flemmings in Brussels will learn French then Francophonians will learn Dutch overthere.

groentje · Post by **groentje** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:51 pm

But will those Flemmings consider themselves as bilingual, then? Or as Flemmings with a good language knowledge?