De-Ker wrote:First of all thanks for your elaborate and detailed comment, it makes discussing a topic lot's better
Dakkus wrote:De-Ker wrote:
It's far from dumb, it's just not naieve!
Please elaborate.
Nowadays mostly due the lie of multiculturalism (which is imo a real farce) we are thought that it's more important that we SHOULD think then what we DO think. Now i don't know about you ofcourse. But here in my neighbourhood lot's of people are so sick and tired of islam. but if you DO say what you think you're instantly a racist bastard who picks on the "weak and inncocent". So better not make a fuss. "If you want to destroy our corrupt society, be our guest because we want to be your friend. We even subsidise it!
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21532/a ... lice-quran / http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/a ... p#respond/ http://memo.brucebawer.com/ (first article, from november 26 2008, especially the last part of that)
Firstly, let me state that I myself an am immigrant. I've spent only the last year in the country where I'm now living. Before that, I've only lived where I was born. Finland, that is.
Therefore, I have first hand experience of what kinds of small problems the lack of multicultural thinking causes in everyday life. There are many things about German society that I have no chance to know. One example that I kinda like is the rather big difference between Finnish and German greeting cultures at workplaces and similar. Although the Finns say hello to their workmates approximately as often as the Germans do, the situations in which greetings are said, overlap only very little. That caused my workmates to get angry because I didn't greet them. They assumed I didn't like them. I also greeted in a situation in which a German would not. And that caused the Germans to get angry, because they thought I had forgotten that I had already met them in the morning. It meant to them that I don't consider them important, that I don't respect them. ..and of course told me only after half a year of being angry that I am doing things wrong so that I could change my habits. And they told it by shouting it in my face, because they had not come to think of the possibility that me coming from a different culture might cause stuff like this. Similar stuff happens in smaller scale in post offices, shops and buses with the workers. And with the passengers in public transportation, with other clients in a shop and while biking in the traffic where the rules for bikers are very different from what they are in Finland. Etc, etc, etc. When a beer costs 83 cents and I accidentally pay 38 cents (the precise price of the cheapest beer in a certain shop chain) because German language has the numbers inside-out, the worker only gets more annoyed when I say: "Entschuldigung dafür. Ich bin ein Ausländer, und mache manchmal solche Fehler mit der Sprache." ("Sorry for that. I'm a foreigner and sometimes make such errors with the language"). In his eyes me having spoken German daily only for one year is no excuse to making errors in it. Stuff similar to this happens to me if not daily, then in any case at least weekly. Many more multicultural Germans are asking me: "What actually is German?" and are usually very surprised about most of the things I list. They simply have assumed the things they have always done would be somehow universal, that they would be done everywhere. And if you don't know what's special to your culture, you also can't understand that when the foreigner is doing things differently, he's not necessarily doing so because he wants to be an asshole, but because he simply - for the same reason! - doesn't know that the thing's done different in his new country. Sometimes, when I'm doing things differently and explaining I'm doing them my way because that's my culture, people interpret that as me wanting to force the Germans to follow the Finnish culture. Which is of course untrue. I truly would want to change the Germans, that's true. I would be so so happy, if they could change so, that they would accept my cultural background, so that they wouldn't get angry if I'm accidentally doing things incorrectly. It would be lovely if they could tolerate me doing things my way, but still kindly tell me, how the same thing is done by the locals. Because I actually have ended up kinda seeing the Turkish, the Scottish, the Nigerians, the Nicaraguans, the Danes, the Koreans, the French and the Spanish as my peers, I have learned a lot of what their problems actually are like. The more different the culture of departure of the immigrant is, the larger such cultural clashes will also be. That is clear. Many things, such as what people are eating, how they are clothing themselves, are actually more cultural than religious these days. Also many of the non-muslims in the same countries do things similarly. When it comes to right of following your own religion, I think the locals really should go as far as realistically possible to enable everybody to follow their religion, no matter what their physical location happens to be. Letting a muslim spend five minutes praying towards Mecca doesn't actually harm anyone. Yes, it is indeed a bit weird in our eyes, but not much of a loss. At least in Finland the regular people make similarly long breaks to smoke a cigarette. And those breaks are not away from the actual breaks. And Nokia is nevertheless doing relatively fine
Organizing a small quiet room for the people from different religions and philosophies, doesn't usually cost that much, either. It is not a problem if Muslims, Christians and Jewish use the same room simultaneously, because all of them want to do their things quietly anyway. And everybody should be tolerant to each other. Organizing such a place usually ends up profiting more than it costs, because it increases the Wohlfühl the worker has in his workplace. However, telling people to do their prayer in a toilet is not okay. I hope the reasons are quite obvious. Even if the toilet is peaceful and quiet, it still isn't quite the place for relaxing
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:I don't care if islam respect me tbh, but i do care when "they" come to our western society and claim the sharia being implanted here.
Please define "'they'". You are currently making an impression that you mean all muslims are trying to get sharia in force in Europe. That, of course is not true. And, it can be proven untrue by how things go in Istanbul, which is a city with a muslim majority.
Islam needs to adept to Europe, not the other way around. Now you are right about the fact that lot's make an effort to adept here, which is great. But lot's of them don't, which result in large islamic places, Mostly controlled by a Imam that enforces radical thoughts. So why should Muslims even integrate, they can order everything in Arabic/Turkish, and are "thought" that our culture is full of crap. It's not even a threat for Christians,Jews, atheist or whatever. But even greater for the muslims themselves.
Islam doesn't need to adapt Europe. And neither does Europe have to adapt to Islam. In a secular society such as most of the EU societies, it is actually all the same, what religion the people in it follow. However, as I already have said above, people do have to adapt to people. Europeans must adapt to the people coming from elsewhere, even if they come from countries where the vast majority of population are Islamic. I do know there are such problem areas you are talking about. They exist in Germany, France, Sweden and to some extent in Finland, as well. Please try imagining yourself as a foreigner. And really, literally try imagining, don't only try to think of what you might imagine if you actually bothered.
Now, you are a foreigner, coming from Somalia. You have moved to Germany without having actually wanted to leave your home country. You have come to Europe because you are unable to live in your home country anymore, because there's a devastating civil war. You have not had special education on things such as cultural shock, as a Finn moving to Germany would have. You have never had any education for multiculturalism. You have just one day had to pack your stuff and very spontaneously leave your home and eventually your country, because otherwise you would be likely to die. With that background, when the locals are causing similar headache as I've described above, you also don't understand they have no way of understanding your culture is different. Because every person you meet is a different one, even if you have explained things to the previous person, you will have the same problems with the next one. Eventually, because you have never heard of multiculturality and are not told of it in your new country, either, you start seeing the locals as racistic assholes, who don't even care of trying to understand you. In that situation, you easily accept that there's no way the locals would ever start being nicer to you. You most likely can't get a work, because foreigners have a terrible extra problems when looking for jobs, because they are seen as foreigners, not as potential workers. Even if they come from some other western country, such as Finland. And of course if coming from another culture, things get even more complicated. To protect your sanity, you start protecting yourself from the difficult situations. You don't want to have much to do with the locals. And even if you try, they often simply get annoyed of your lifestyle, because they don't see what is their own cultural speciality and what not. You greet them in wrong situations, you get surprised of having to print a paper with your home computer in order to prove your identity because a passport "just is not enough of a proof" - thus annoying the bank worker, who can't understand what's so weird about requiring such paper. (Oh, and of course you also won't get the money for buying food to your empty closet when you have only 38 cents of money in your wallet and 40 degrees of fever, because you haven't proven your identity with anything more reliable than a passport. And the bank closes before you can print the paper with the printer you don't own... (Precisely this has actually happened to an anonymous immigrant...))
Eventually your new society doing almost nothing (except giving money - which you can't get off your bank account without that weirdo paper, anyway) to support you, will make you annoyed like hell, because nobody ever warned you about these things, because you never planned to leave your home country in the first place. Getting all the time more annoyed year after year will eventually make you feel like something has to be done. You of course have no right to vote and even if you do, there is nobody to vote who would really understand what an immigrant's life is like. There is no way to change things, your life's hellishly difficult and you are unable to go back to your home country. What do you do?
Of course only a small part of the immigrants are refugees and only a small part of the refugees are having that much problems understanding what is actually causing the problems - that the people are not being mean, just different. But still, even a small part of a small part is a high number when the amount of immigrants is hundreds of thousands per year. And then that part of a part is causing trouble. I'd say we could really stop those problems by being more tolerant, by understanding other cultures.
I once read a newspaper article in which they also had interviewed a Russian woman who had moved to Finland. She said in the article that she is constantly crying because the Finns hate her. She said she could notice that from how flat the Finns spoke to her. They didn't tone anything in their words at all, but instead talked with a monotonous accent to her, clearly showing disrespect towards her. Of course, in reality, the Finns don't show disrespect in their way of speaking. It might be the only country on the planet where talking is really done the robot way around, but still, that's how the Finns talk to everybody, also to other Finns. The article did make me sad. Not because the woman had not accepted Finnish culture, but because she had real difficulties in her everyday life, just because of not understanding a vital part of Finnish culture. And she had gotten really angry of it, as well. I'd say she has had really bad luck and really hope the newspaper reporter told her how things actually are, so that she understands the Finns are not being mean to her.
De-Ker wrote:
Turkey is of course not a good example when i am talking about western culture, (it's the only potential EU member with an Islamic-background, which is also a big fat bottleneck in brussel/strassbourg) i do however, think western turkey is a great example of how Islam should be interpreted. and that's because they ban extreme Islamic things like being veiled in public buildings like university's
Here you can see that Islam itself doesn't make the people EVIL. It is, instead, a culture that is using Islam only as an excuse for being an asshole. The same thing took place in Europe a few hundred years ago, in that time committed by Christians.
I would also like to mention that for many people coming from countries with a muslim majority, hair or bare feet of a woman are similarly sexual objects as breasts and naked ass are in our culture. A woman walking around without a scarf looks the same in many eyes, as it would look like in your eyes if a woman was walking around without anything covering her breasts. Even if the woman wouldn't consider it a problem walking around without a shirt, bikini or anything, you would consider it a problem and would want the woman to clothe herself up a bit. Even though you are not a woman. It's the same thing with many muslim men. They see it as a crazy thing that the locals are showing their sexual things (hair) publicly, but are able to accept it from the mainstream population. However, if a person "who should know!" is doing the same, then the man gets really annoyed. I do consider that utterly stupid, just as I consider it utterly stupid that women are not allowed to walk on the streets without a shirt, because some people think of breast as if they were nothing but sexual objects.
Please keep in mind, that there really are cultures, where women are walking around without anything covering their breasts.
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:If i'd go to a Islamic county i would adept. And i wouldn't claim my way of living to to be integrated in their culture.
You maybe. However, not all Dutch people would. Some of them would be stubborn enough to try forcing their laws in their new country. I could very well imagine that a Dutchie might secretly drink beer in a strongly islamistic country, for example. And even think it is not acceptable that the local laws prohibit it. I understand you would not do that, but that does not mean some Dutch wouldn't do it anyway. And, of course, because some Dutchies like doing that, then "they" (the Dutch people, that is) clearly had better stop forcing their laws upon other cultures!
You are totally right about that, and I know that you want to let me see that not every Dutchman is the same. which is of course even more true! But then again, drinking beer secretly is something else then claiming the law being adapted to my cultural background. "I believe that drinking beer is an essence of my culture so they must make an exception for it" *cough* I would probably in jail if i even said something like that because i insulted the holy prophet. However I don't really want to go to the middle-east anyway because I don't feel like to beat up my girlfriend, and mutilate my daughter.
http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/christi ... tries.html[/quote]
My point was precisely, that there _are_ Dutch people who would want the local laws to be changed, indeed! It's definitely a tiny minority, but it does exist, indeed. And that's anyway the same with the muslims wanting to change our laws into their direction.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
I never said all Muslims are radicals, i said there religion is!
Please elaborate. In which manner is Islam a radical religion but Christianity not? I am guessing you are thinking Islam is a radical religion, because radical islamists are acting radically. Am I right?
See below
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
However the Bible isn't a clean sheet either, Christians are not like that funnily enough,
Like what?
As an atheist i do think Both of them aren't the best way of living. However It's all about interpreting the book. The Quran says Muslims that there believe is above all others. which is the same for the Bible. However I never saw a Muslim consulate being burned down, i never saw riots in big Muslim city's after they burned the danish flag. It's funny tho that when the dannish newspapers re-printed the cartoons it was followed by a week of riot in copenhagen. (but that was not because of the cartoons, that was because they where bored, like the Danish Chief Inspector said). Like you and i set city's on fire every other weekend, because we are bored.. No i rather collect euro notes and write them down when i'm bored...
(http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g1z ... cnFhHCpuxA)
You also have never seen Turkish burning down embassies. And the Christian history _does_ include things similar to burning down embassies of nations of non-christian religions - for religious reasons. These facts show two other facts: People believing in Christian religion are able to be idiots and people believing in Islam are able to be non-idiots. It is not that much about the religion, but more about the culture the people come from. The same people would probably burn the same embassies even if the country happened to be Buddhist instead of Islamic... And BTW, even if you move to Finland, nobody is forcing you to use a special cheese slicer. Even if you move to Germany, nobody is forcing you to drink Pilsner. Even if you move to Jemen, nobody is forcing you to beat up your girlfriend or mutilate your daughter. And all that frankly, if somebody else does something like that over there, he even breaks the local laws.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
however they believe in there own things and occasionally want us (atheists) to adept/submit to for instance: Sunday rest (like the bank crises this weekend in holland, where the Prime minister "shouldn't call a Christian politician about a mater on Sunday" while the bank is almost collapsing) . But i never saw a Christian that intolerant to other religions.
Using the phrase "that intolerant" makes it look as if you were assuming Islamist people were by default intolerant to other religions. Please elaborate. There are several intolerant regimes in Islamistic countries (for example Iran), but there are also tolerant ones (for example Turkey and for what I understand, also Indonesia). Many Islamistic countries have minorities belonging to other religions. In many cases their life quality is not affected by supporting a non-mainstream religion. How is this possible, if Islam is a per-default intolerant religion in a manner Christianity is not.
ya i do think about loads of the county's are intolerant to other believes. Turkey is to. When going to other country's the woman of the Turkish prime-minister is veiled. Of course it's not harming me that she's veiled but it's not adapting to our standards, where woman are free to do what they want. But don't you even dare going to strict islamic counties without being veiled...That's the whole problem, WE have to adept to them. And we should also embrace their believe when they are here...How intollorant is that
Huh? Isn't the wife of the Turkish prime minister /always/ veiled, when walking in public? I don't think you are correct when saying she only does that when going abroad. Or, if you are meaning she should adapt to the European manners, then do you also think Angela Merkel should wear a burhka if she ever visits Iran?
De-Ker wrote:
Remember the Turkish prime-minister arguing with Prime-minister of Israel about the bombing in Palestine. Of course in this mather the Palestinians are the weak and the one being tortured *cough*. But in fact Hamas is the real criminal, using there own people as human shield!
Come ooon! The amount of Israelians that have died in the war of within the range of tens. The same number for dead palestinians is now past 1000. You should also take the Israeli history into account. The country was forcefully created by throwing it's existing population away from a certain area by UN, mainly thanks to the British, implying that they are not as important as humans as the new people are. The people previously living there had not done anything wrong, they had not waged any war towards west, were just leading a peaceful life. And then they were just thrown away from their homes, because their home country was just given to some other people. And, even if this could be somewhat acceptable because the jews had suffered so much (though, why did the Palestinians have to suffer of that? Why not either the ones who caused the problems to the Jewish or the ones who wanted to help the Jewish to find a country to live?), how is it acceptable that quickly after the country's founding it even went on militarily attacking the rest of Palestine? The Israel originally founded by UN was only a small part of what Israel now rules. What Israel is now doing is spitting on the faces of all the Jewish people who have suffered of racism. I am having hard time figuring out how the founding of Israel could be justified from any point of view. Well, now they are there and most of their population are already 2nd or 3rd generation Israelians, so of course they now also should stay there. But still, does that really have to mean building a high wall around a neighboring country to block the people living in that country from moving anywhere and even taking a large part of the small income they manage to produce?! Of course the Palestinians are furious! (That does, however, NOT mean that violence would be okay. The people using violence are idiots nonetheless.)
But this all taken into account it is incredible that you are apparently seeing Hamas as the only asshole in the situation.
And 3 of the 10 are not. Many of the totalitarian countries are Islamic. Not all totalitarian countries are Islamic, not all Islamic countries are totalitarian.
If you look at the list, you notice that all of the Islamic countries listed are totalitarian ones. You also notice that all of the non-Islamic countries listed are totalitarian ones. If you look very close, you will also notice that all of the countries listed überhaupt are totalitarian ones. This suggests that totalitarianism might correlate with restricting the freedom of the people living in the totalitarian countries. Thus, jailing Christians for religious reasons is a problem concerning non-christian totalitarian countries, not a problem concerning specifically Islamic countries.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
Face it: Islam women don't have any rights.
Also, in hardcore Christianity women don't have any rights. Islam was created to give more rights to all kinds of people, especially women, because at those times Christianity was appalling when it came to women's rights. And, for what I know, the Holy Bible hasn't gotten any bugfixes revising it into a more tolerant direction.
About woman having not a lot of rights in the Bible i have to agree. but you've got to be kidding about the islamic women.. take a look here: WARNING NOT SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/34443/5 ... ouwen.html
Took a look. There would be an amount of text longer than what I have now written to write about the film. Shortly put, it mostly handles things that happen also outside the Islamic world. Women are raped in Ireland, women's heads are cut in Poland, women have a lack of rights in many parts of life, for example work life, in Sweden. You could make a similar collage from European countries, showing that Europeans are all evil. The film doesn't actually prove anything, because it tells nothing about how things are done _generally_ in the countries where the photos have been taken.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
In fact nobody has [rights], You submit, that's the deal.
Is your view that this applies to all Islamic countries and no Christian countries? If yes, why do you consider Turkey being a country where everyone just has to submit into a life of brainless zombie and also, why do you consider Cuba to be a good example of a country where people have the freedom of choice regarding all decisions affecting their life?
Indeed Cuba and north-korea are not that kind to Christians or every other believe. But then again that's only overthere. I feel sorry for everyone in northern korea (especially) cause the indoctrination. I truly believe they don't know the difference between true fear, and true believe. However North-korea and cuba don't say that the rest of the would should live like them, In fact "juche" (first used by Kim Sung Il) is actually an impression that says: We can take care of our-selfs and don't want anyone involved. A bit the opposite of Islam in some way. cause they want us to do exactly the same as they do.(adept Sharia as the law)
Even Iran, which is probably the craziest of all countries with a strong muslim majority, is not trying say the whole world should live like them. If you find something that counters this, please show it.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
And again i don't care that people are Muslim, Freedom of believe i'd say. But the problem is that they want me to adjust to their believes in Holland. which i won't, at all cost!
I am very sure the Dutch muslims aren't that different from the Finnish and German muslims. At least over here in Germany I don't see muslims wanting to change the local system into a muslim one.
If you have experienced muslims wanting you to adjust to their beliefs, what are the experiences? Please tell especially of the ones for which you have at least a slight proof of the vast majority of muslims thinking the same.
Well in germany the problem also exists and i'm sure it also exist in Finland however Muslims aren't that common there. In fact the whole of europe is blushing under muslim terrorist who what sharia being implanted.
http://www.welt.de/welt_print/article31 ... Qaida.html , http://www.focus.de/politik/weitere-mel ... 66584.html
What do these things have to do with the majority of muslims? A certain percentage of Hinduists are ready to kill for their religion. A certain number of Christians are ready to kill for their religion. Racistic murders, where for example neonazis are murdering a person because of the person having a "wrong" religion do really happen. Of course neonazis are only a minority consisting of idiots, but similarly also the Islamic people killing for their religion are only a minority consisting of idiots. You shouldn't assume all muslims to be idiots because of what the minority do, just as you shouldn't consider all Christians to be neonazis because of what Christian neonazis do.
De-Ker wrote:
Dakkus wrote:
De-Ker wrote:
As long as they don't want other people to be "allah-lovers" (without capital on purpose) i don't care what they do, but don't come here and claim dominion!
Then why on Earth do you care of most of muslims? Why not care only of the ridiculously small minority, that is actually uttering the bullshit you are whining about? Just let the idiots shout! The words won't do you bad.
because (as quoted above) they want me to adept to them, in Europe for "Christ" sake. But it isn't. In fact. we are all adapting. For instance. Geert Wilders who was democratic elected her in Holland, is now being sued because he compared the Quran with Mein-kampf. Now i don't exactly agree with him about that but it's freedom of speech I'd say, "But O-no that racist discriminating bastard, how you dare to insult us". However he's now being sued. Well if he loses, the dyke is breached and no-one is allowed to say anything which isn't in-line with Islam. In fact i hope I won't get sued for saying all this!
Comparing the Quaran to Mein Kampf makes precisely as much sense as comparing the Holy Bible to Mein Kampf. You have said yourself a "couple" of lines above, that in your opinion the Holy Bible is no cleaner than Quaran. If somebody compared the Holy Bible to Mein Kampf, I would want that person to be sued. Even though I am an atheist.
De-Ker wrote:Again. Muslims who adept (luckily still a lot) aren't the problem. The Extremist are. In my opinion every non-western foreigner has to learn the courties language and contribute to the society in one way or another. And should be kicked out if committing even one crime. (and that includes beating your wife, or molest your daughter)
What do you mean "again"?! Until now you have been talking of the problem of Islam, now suddenly you claim you have been talking about the problem of extreme Islamism? What are you actually talking about?
