The new EU

[Olivier]

I don't believe, and don't want an European Federation, at least not in the next 20-50 years.. that would be moving too fast.. and probably it wouldn't last much..

The story is that... it is scheduled for the coming decade. The Convention on Europe works on writing a constitution for 2004, before the enlargment.
The problem is that nobody cares except the Convention. So, everybody feels all happens in Brussels without any debate, which is wrong.

I don't think we're ready for a common Foreign politics, remember in the echelon for example.. there are many different interests..

It started with the treaties of Maastricht (92) and Amsterdam (98?)...

I agree with a common european policy for important crisis, such as the Middle East. Each country alone has no more influence. There are peoples which could benefit from a single european voice.
Moreover, for the moment, Europe gives billions of euros to humanitarian causes, but has nothing to say...

Of courses, there are different interests, but there are also common interest we could fight for all together.

I would like to see a common university system however (well, looks like I tottaly disagree with Pinguino )

and with me!
I prefer education and culture to remain "national".

and also a common tax system!

It's on the agenda of the danish presidency.

but United States of Europe, no thanks, too danger!
BN

Not "the USE"... but a different European Union.

PS: and I'm sure that portuguese wouldn't accept that in referendum.. and probably the majority of the countries..

I don't know... if our leaders take the time to explain really what it is about, as it was in 1992 in France, for the Maastricht treaty.

[Olivier]

I personally don't understand why having a common tax and social security system would be so awful and a common foreign policy not. Or vice-versa. I think the EU does need to be given all the basic functions of a normal state as was recently suggested it should. Only this way will we be able to hold any credibility with the outside world. I think things are moving far too slow.

I agree with you. And precisely, this is this state of transition which generates euroscepticism... because we can't tell simply who does what and who is responsible of what.

I have talked with eurosecptic people in Austria, a month ago. The speach was "Why should I want more Europe when Brussels decides more lorries/trucks in the Alps"... I replied that there could more trucks in the Alps without the european legislation, but it's not very easy to fight for.

[Olivier]

I would like to see a common university system however (well, looks like I tottaly disagree with Pinguino )

I had more in mind primary school. And the fact is that I'm not an expert on the topic, so I don't know if making a common university system would be complex or not.

I would agree with common measures to help the educational exchanges between the europeans universities, but I don't want a single european system of education... Our diversity is interesting in that topic.

[pinguino79]

I prefer education and culture to remain "national".

This sounds natural; education and schooling system is tightly linked with national culture. Imposing a common schooling system is risky. Things may be different with university, though.

[Olivier]

I prefer education and culture to remain "national".

This sounds natural; education and schooling system is tightly linked with national culture. Imposing a common schooling system is risky. Things may be different with university, though.

Yes... what system do you think about?

[BossaNova]

first when I said a common university system, what I was really trying to say was an equivalent university system, I don't want a common system in portugal, of course I don't want it to europe..

I believe in the independence of universities, I simply want that an engineer, for example, that studied in Finland can easily work in Greece, and vice-versa etc. etc. there are ukranians doctors working in construction here in portugal because their education is not recognized..

I like very much when EU talks with a single voice, but many many times that's not possible, and if the single voice was an obligation in every situation, many times the voice of small countries would be silenced, basically it would be a franco-german agreement


loosing the foreign politics is the final lost of independence, and I really don't want that for my country, specialy when I'm still not tottaly convinced that this is the best way for portugal..

as I said in other topics, I agree that European union is essential for peace and democracy in europe, but portugal is not essential to european union, and we have other options.. sometimes I feel like portuguese suddenly looked at the map and discovered they were also europeans, and because of the economic advantages we imediatly join the eu.. but nothing more, sometimes I really think we are prostituting ourselves in EU.. come on, the second capital more near to Lisbon is Rabat and not Paris, and after Rabat is Argel..


No, I really don't want that European Union becomes a single big country! at least, not with portugal inside..

[Olivier]

first when I said a common university system, what I was really trying to say was an equivalent university system, I don't want a common system in portugal, of course I don't want it to europe..

I believe in the independence of universities, I simply want that an engineer, for example, that studied in Finland can easily work in Greece, and vice-versa etc. etc.

I agree with you! We need more university exchanges but each university has to keep its independance.

I like very much when EU talks with a single voice, but many many times that's not possible, and if the single voice was an obligation in every situation, many times the voice of small countries would be silenced, basically it would be a franco-german agreement


loosing the foreign politics is the final lost of independence, and I really don't want that for my country, specialy when I'm still not tottaly convinced that this is the best way for portugal..

as I said in other topics, I agree that European union is essential for peace and democracy in europe, but portugal is not essential to european union, and we have other options..

Well, big and interesting debate!
What would be the best solution for Europe, to listen more the "small" countries? Shouldn't they do more proposals? >Don't you think the situation will change with the enlargement? Except Poland, all the newcomers are small countries (less than 10 millions of people).

How do you imagine the future of Europe, and the future of Portugal? What are these options you talk about? Is it only a free market?

sometimes I feel like portuguese suddenly looked at the map and discovered they were also europeans, and because of the economic advantages we imediatly join the eu.. but nothing more, sometimes I really think we are prostituting ourselves in EU.. come on, the second capital more near to Lisbon is Rabat and not Paris, and after Rabat is Argel..

I don't think the economy of Rabat is good enough to develop the economy of Lisbon... Since 1986, Portugal has changed and the country is richer than it was! I have visited Portugal in 1981 and 2001... what a change!!

No, I really don't want that European Union becomes a single big country! at least, not with portugal inside..

The debate is not about a unification in a single big country! Nobody agrees with that!

What about a federation?

[matt.berlin]

I want a single country. And what's more I think it will come. The whole argument of which capital is nearest is a bit stupid I think. Take a city like Essen, it's closest capital city would be Amsterdam. Doesn't mean people in the Ruhrpott consider themselves Dutch, does it? And in any case, itsn't Lisbon closer to Madrid than Rabat?

I think what scares people most is losing their cultural identity. People see the United States of America, and think there is nothing to distinguish one place from another. I don't think that would ever happen here, as our cultures are rooted deep in tradition and history. Take for example regions such as Brittany, Scotland or Catalonia .. they keep a strong regional identity despite being part of a larger country.

[Olivier]

I want a single country. And what's more I think it will come. The whole argument of which capital is nearest is a bit stupid I think. Take a city like Essen, it's closest capital city would be Amsterdam. Doesn't mean people in the Ruhrpott consider themselves Dutch, does it? And in any case, itsn't Lisbon closer to Madrid than Rabat?

I think what scares people most is losing their cultural identity. People see the United States of America, and think there is nothing to distinguish one place from another. I don't think that would ever happen here, as our cultures are rooted deep in tradition and history. Take for example regions such as Brittany, Scotland or Catalonia .. they keep a strong regional identity despite being part of a larger country.

Which form would have this country? A federal one? A centralised country, like United Kingdom or France?

I realise I did not understand the word ''capital". I thought it was the financial term (Marx)... not the "haupstadt".

[Olivier]

I want a single country. And what's more I think it will come.

Well I don't know how it could. There are 3 countris inside the EU which don't even have the european currency. The Schengen agreement is not available in Ireland and the UK, but is available in Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein which are not members.

Some fear "more europe", other not. I think we are going to a "Europe à la carte". The 1st six members may not want to wait for the countries which don't want more than a single market, and could create a "noyau dur".

[BossaNova]

when i said capital, I meant the city, but yes that was a bad example..

what I tried to say, is that for portuguese the big and only andvantage for being in EU is economical.. yes portugal developed tremendously in the last 25 years, and a big part of that development is due to our EU membership..

but the european dream doesn't live in portugal.. europe is too far way..

don't take me wrong, I love europe, I didn't travel much yet, but for instance, Italy is a country where I would love to live sometime.. is the european country I know better besides Portugal..

and when I talked about other options, I was reffering to CPLP, the comunity of portuguese language countries..

but that of course wouldn't be advantageous economically

and I think it's only because of that, that we didn't follow that way (CPLP)..

some day in the future, we will regret it.. that's what I think..


PS: when I'm favour of a common currency, common tax system etc.. that's because I'm in favour of that to all World not only EU, but this is a start and yes I'm always going to be an EBT crazy fan, even if portugal joins the pataca some day

[Olivier]

but the european dream doesn't live in portugal.. europe is too far way..

don't take me wrong, I love europe, I didn't travel much yet, but for instance, Italy is a country where I would love to live sometime.. is the european country I know better besides Portugal..

But BN, you ARE in Europe! Your national story takes place in the european story, portuguese immigrants have lived in the rest of Europe for decades and still do.

My ex-boyfriend's parents have lived in Paris for 35 years, and live now in Portugal. They are really European because they often go to France, drive with a german car, which plate is french... they speak both french and portuguese at home, even with their brothers and sisters who also lived in France for years.

Portugal as not only got an economical "boom" since 1986, but also a political stability, peace.. and you have all the rights your european citizenship give to you. The first of them is you can live wherever you want inside Europe...

Belonging to Europe won't prevent you from your lusophone culture. France is member of the francophonie group, the UK has the commonwealth.

Do travel in Europe (start with Italy if you prefer), and you'll see the youth is not so different from you.

[BossaNova]

But BN, you ARE in Europe! Your national story takes place in the european story, portuguese immigrants have lived in the rest of Europe for decades and still do. >>>>>>> there are a lot lot more portuguese immigrants outside europe, specialy in USA, Canada, Brazil, Venezuela and South Africa

My ex-boyfriend's parents have lived in Paris for 35 years, and live now in Portugal. They are really European because they often go to France, drive with a german car, which plate is french... they speak both french and portuguese at home, even with their brothers and sisters who also lived in France for years. >>>>>>>>> like portuguese immigrants in Canada probably speak portuguese and french and english, do you know Nelly Furtado? she's porttuguese-canadian

Portugal as not only got an economical "boom" since 1986, but also a political stability, peace.. >>>>>>>> that we got with 25 April 1974!
and you have all the rights your european citizenship give to you. The first of them is you can live wherever you want inside Europe... >>>>> yes and I like that, so much that I would like to see it extended to entire world

Belonging to Europe won't prevent you from your lusophone culture. France is member of the francophonie group, the UK has the commonwealth. >>>>>> but will weaken the lusophone union...

Do travel in Europe (start with Italy if you prefer), and you'll see the youth is not so different from you. >>>> I would love to do that a lot more, but just an example, when I was in Greece I didn't find them so similar to me

[Olivier]

there are a lot lot more portuguese immigrants outside europe, specialy in USA, Canada, Brazil, Venezuela and South Africa

Yes! So, yo mean Europe is too small?

Portugal as not only got an economical "boom" since 1986, but also a political stability, peace.. >>>>>>>> that we got with 25 April 1974!

You can't deny that Europe was good for Portugal !?

yes and I like that, so much that I would like to see it extended to entire world

Let's start with our continent...

Belonging to Europe won't prevent you from your lusophone culture. France is member of the francophonie group, the UK has the commonwealth. >>>>>> but will weaken the lusophone union...

Why??

Do travel in Europe (start with Italy if you prefer), and you'll see the youth is not so different from you. >>>> I would love to do that a lot more, but just an example, when I was in Greece I didn't find them so similar to me

Though they are!
A big part of your culture comes from Greece! Our languages are latin...

[BossaNova]

now I really have to sleep, I don't deny EU was extremely good for our economy, I already said that, but peace and political freedom and stability, that was a 25 April conquest

and yes, Europe is too small, and Europeans are too Eurocentric!