EuroBillTracker

And people who still play .com don't know the other side of the story so they believe the story from Giro..

GP wrote:And people who still play .com don't know the other side of the story so they believe the story from Giro..

And that's why I fear that this will be the end of EBT. There will never be one consistent EBT database again, it will be scattered over .com and .eu.
I'd like to repeat that Harry Potter statement that someone made

My personal and humble opinion, for what is worth...

I've read both the news from the "Empire" and the "Alliance": for what I can read, they both make sense.

As it is, ".com" is a commercial suffix, owned and run by someone, which has full power over it. Like it or not: HE is the owner, HE makes the rules. So it's up to you: stay with HIM at HIS rules or go somewhere else.

This is a sort of maximalist approach; anyway the internet has never been a fully democratic place...

As it is, ".eu" people is a little bit too frantic right now... For what I can remember about copyright, too look-a-like sites usually mean infringements of someone's rights... And also "Hit Bombing" isn't a very effective way to help fix things diplomatically... I agree on the "Moral Primacy" of ".eu", due to the great effort over the years; still I'm afraid that property laws still apply?

I'd suggest to take advantage of the situation to straight things up a little: what about going for a GPL-GNU statute (maybe something Wikipedia like) to definite and fix bases of an actual free EBT?

So, let's go for a policy, statute and domain that is totally user driven...

tinka wrote:try google and enter : eurobilltracker
There eu stands first in line and anybody can place a link to domainshift

Not any more ?!?! Is the adword-entry canceled?

I think its important to change all (old) .com-Links as far as possible to .eu-URL, so the new site climbs up to the first position!!!

ErGo wrote:

tinka wrote:try google and enter : eurobilltracker
There eu stands first in line and anybody can place a link to domainshift

Not any more ?!?! Is the adword-entry canceled?

Oh, they're still active, no worries. Google may occassionally limit the number of times an ad is shown due to daily budget constraints. I've now raised the daily budget a bit so it should be visible more often.

avij wrote:Oh, they're still active, no worries. Google may occassionally limit the number of times an ad is shown due to daily budget constraints. I've now raised the daily budget a bit so it should be visible more often.

Yes, but the existence of 2 EBT sites can't be a solution as 2 Korea or 2 Germany: if in about a week a solution will not be founded, I am afraid that for EBT will be the death

claudio vda wrote:Yes, but the existence of 2 EBT sites can't be a solution as 2 Korea or 2 Germany: if in about a week a solution will not be founded, I am afraid that for EBT will be the death

It will be a set-back, but as Giro wrote, it was the community which makes the site to a sucess.

Giro wrote: ... I lay no claim to the Forum ...

And as long as on .com is no forum there will be no community.

ErGo wrote:I think its important to change all (old) .com-Links as far as possible to .eu-URL, so the new site climbs up to the first position!!!

Exactly: Google partly determines the popularity of site by the number of inbound links. I've changed all instances of ebt.com into ebt.eu on my weblog and I suggest everyone starts thinking about where the old URL still may be in a forum signature, on a website,...

Can someone explain why the .com version is commercial?

Mkay wrote:Can someone explain why the .com version is commercial?

http://forum.eurobilltracker.eu/viewtop ... 751#497751

Discovering today the EBT-website, I am particularly sad of what is happening,

I share the opinion recently posted by Craco ; and I believe that in conflicts/divorces, they are always two sides and two truths. i haven't got all elements in hands to judge. But here is what I can see :

Giro is the creator of the website ; he owns the rights on the domain.
Nerzhul and Avij have been doing the job since a couple of years and rely on volunteer works.

Giro believe in adding commercial ads, whilst Avij and Nerzhul believe in a free community not implying any financial counterpart.

Obviously my trust go to Nerzhul and Avij, because I know they have been doing the work for EBT since I joined three years ago ; having said this, Giro owner's rights should also be respected (as he should respect the "community" property ).
On the other hand, I can not support the idea that EBT should not get any financing ; it is unfair that Avij should pay for the server ; and furthermore, it is not a stable situation : if anything should happen to Avij, what would happen to the Community ?

During the Amsterdam EBT-meeting, I suggested to Avij, that maybe we could create a non-profit association, which would cover the responsibility for the website and that would allow the gathering of some money (via commercial adds or via a volunteer fee). This money could then serve for paying for the server and paying adversting on some websites.

Having a large experience in running non-profit association (I am director of a international non-profit association gathering 1000 members in 50 countries), I am willing to volunteer if you need a professional expertise in this domain.

I will be there for helping finding a diplomatic solution to this situation, which is absolutely counterproductive for our hobby.

A last word to mention that I will register tonight my notes on www.eurobilltracker.eu.

Please find below the text I posted on the French forum :

Phaseolus wrote:Bon, on me demande de prendre position sur un sujet que je découvre et sur lequel je n'ai pas les tenants et aboutissants.

Craco, fondateur du forum, vient de poster un message qui résume assez bien mon point de vue : je ne crois pas aux situations "noir/blanc". Comme dans toute situation il y a surement des trods partagés.

Giro est le créateur du site; C'est indéniable. Il a les droits sur le site.

Avij et Nerzhul ont fait vivre le site ces quatre dernières années. Leur travail est complété par le volontariat de tout un chacun.

Giro croit à un financement du site par le biais de publicité ; Nerzhul et Avij croyent à une communauté de volontaires sans modéle économique.

Mon coeur balance : la vraie vie d'EBT est basée sur le volontariat, malgré tout, je pense qu'il est illusoire de ne pas vouloir parler d'argent. EBT génère des coûts et Avij ne peut les supporter tout seul. ce modèle ne peut être viable.

Moi j'avais pensé de créer une Association de Loi 1901, gérant les recettes publicitaires et les redistribuant sur la base des frais subis par les uns ou par les autres.

Mais, je n'ai pas de solution à trouver à un problème qui me dépasse et pour lequel je ne suis pas compétent.

par contre, ce soir j'encoderai mes billets sur http://www.eurobilltracker.eu

C'est sûr ; et j'espère hitter car NIG me prévoit un hit au plus tard pour le 27 décembre 2007 !

@Phaseolus:

Well spoken.

Personally I hope that common ground can be found. Until then I'll enter my notes at .eu only and depending on how events evolve, if I feel it to be nessecary, I'll request that Mr Girolami delete all my accumulated data from the .com site, as he in that case will be required by law to do.

I found out that my account at the .com site is locked down and that the ip-address I did use the last time I did visit that particular site is prevented from accessing it. Well, ipconfig /renew usually takes care of that with most setups in Windowsboxes

I send this message to BOTH camps and I hope the communication can come back between them+ that they find a sollution...

Mon cher Philippe, Avij, Nerzhul et autres ‘managers’ de EBT….
Comme un des anciens utlisateurs de EBT je trouve la situation désastreuse….
Je ne veux pas prendre partis dans la discussion.
Il n’y pas de bons et de mauvais, mais il n’y a que des perdants !
Pour cela, svp mettez vous autour de la table afin de trouvez une sollution et de finir ces disputes qui ne mainent à rien !
EBt tourne depuis des années et à connu un développement très positive.
Ce serait dommage de voir ta création échouer sur les rocs à cause de discussion de principes.
Si personne ne mets de l’eau dans son vin, beaucoup d’utilisateurs quitteront le site et la belle idée qui est derrière.
L’euro lui-même est un fruit de dialogues et de compromis.
Alors messieurs (et mesdames ???) cherchez une solution et mettez vos épaules sous un seul projet…
Eurobilltracker (.com ou .eu---on s’on ….) et investissez votre énergie dans la continuation et la communication de se beau projet européen…. !

Theo,
Alias de-jo – user Nr. 322

My dear Philippe, Avij, Nerzhul and all other ‘managers’ of EBT….
As an old faithful user of EBT I find the actual situation a disaster.
I do not want to enter in the discussion about who is right and who is wrong. There are no good ones and there are no bad ones, there are only losers in this conflict!
So please sit back around the table and find a solution. Stop this war and discussions that are bringing us nowhere…
EBT is running fine for years now and has a very positive drive…
It should be very sad to see this splendid creation wrecking on the rocks due to some principles questions…and big egos…
If everybody stands on its own position, no water is put into the wine and a solution is not found, very much users will turn away from the site and the nice idea behind it.
The € itself is a product from dialogue and compromise.
So gentlemen (and ladies ??) please look for a constructive solution and put your shoulders under one unique EBT project.
Eurobilltracker ( .com or .eu --- bollocks) and invest all your energy in the continuation and the communication of this beautiful European project!

Theo
alias de-jo – user Nr.322

The idea of a non-profit organization for EBT has been discussed behind the scenes for quite some time now. It would legally own the domain + code and be able to collect enough money to cover the costs of the site.

We'd have long pursued this track, but the problem was Philippe. He'd have to transfer his rights (domain) and remaining intellectual properties to the newly found organization.

An organization would also prevent situations like the current. I mean ... who owns what?

The general idea is not new. Wheregeorge.com has been around before EBT was found.

The domain is clearly the property of Philippe.

The note data is owned by everybody who has entered it.

The code and design? Texts? A mess, lawyers would be happy

Ever since Ph. left the project in 2003 the code and techniques behind the site were vastly extended, improved and redesigned. Features like the improved statistics, rankings, filters, more settings, city + country profiles, new city data structures, extended forms for entering notes, search engine, administrative tools to deal with abuse, welcome tour for new users, auto-hit moderation and countless other little things were designed and implemented by me. I (legally) own this code, yet I can still see it used by Philippe.

Aside from that I'm very sad about the current situation. I still hope we will find a peaceful solution and reunite the two sides

At least we should be safe from legal problems, because either side telling the other site to stop by using legal ways would see itself being stopped for the very same reason...
The copyrights are so completely messed up.
Every other word in the code belongs to Nerzhul, every other to Giro... Remove either part and the code cannot work any longer...