Turkey in Europe?

[milanocapitale]

iN ANy case italy has been threatened by turkey 5 years ago because our governement protected a patriot of curds...so the conflict is already open.

[groentje]

Difference isn't a reason not to form a union. Past wars isn't either, don't forget, that WOII was only 60 years ago, a war, where Germany and Italy fought against the UK, France, Russia... Only 15 years ago, we had a Cold War with the Eastern (and Central ) European countries. Now, most of those countries are in the Union.
My main reason for a Union with Turkey is nót an economical one, but a political and cultural one. I want Turkey as a member to enrich the European culture, but also to bring them closer to us. And that is best possible in the Union...

[Dakkus]

Difference isn't a reason not to form a union. Past wars isn't either, don't forget, that WOII was only 60 years ago, a war, where Germany and Italy fought against the UK, France, Russia... Only 15 years ago, we had a Cold War with the Eastern (and Central :wink: ) European countries. Now, most of those countries are in the Union.
My main reason for a Union with Turkey is nót an economical one, but a political and cultural one. I want Turkey as a member to enrich the European culture, but also to bring them closer to us. And that is best possible in the Union...

Once again, groentje says everything I would say if I found the words :)

[milanocapitale]

My head says u are right but it's not possible!

[Tiverius]

Difference isn't a reason not to form a union. Past wars isn't either, don't forget, that WOII was only 60 years ago, a war, where Germany and Italy fought against the UK, France, Russia... Only 15 years ago, we had a Cold War with the Eastern (and Central ) European countries. Now, most of those countries are in the Union.
My main reason for a Union with Turkey is nót an economical one, but a political and cultural one. I want Turkey as a member to enrich the European culture, but also to bring them closer to us. And that is best possible in the Union...

We are not talking for a past war.We are talking about an everyday undeclared war.Turkey has illegaly (according to UN security council decision I should remind you) invaded in Cyprus (a member state of EU I should also remind you),which does not recognize.Daily we have over 20 violations of Athens and Nicosia FIR by turkish F16.Does yesterday a german or a French fighter jet flown over your country?They do it here every single day.
Mentioning culture,tell me how the turkish will enrich our culture?Remind me of one really famous turkish writer or director.These people have no tradition in culture,simply because they are uncivilized and their daily actions prove that.

This photo taken two weeks ago.It's a demonstration of turkish demanding the Greek Orthodox Patriarchy (which to Orthodox means the same as The Vatican to the catholics) to be removed from Constantinoupolis (situated there since the Byzantine years) to Greece.And,imagine that the Patriarch supports the entrance of Turkey in EU.Same demos took place every month.I remind you this photo taken in May.

How would a catholic react if turkish were having a hunged puppet of the Pope and swearing against him?
And this happened today:

"Grey Wolves" Create Unrest 10 Nov 2005 11:45:00 (Last updated: 10 Nov 2005 18:41:19)
Sources: NET

A new challenge was delivered by the "Grey Wolves" in Istanbul, just hours after the State Department issued a report criticising Turkey’s religious freedoms. A group of Turkish nationalists gathered in Phanar this morning, calling for the expulsion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and chanting mottos against the USA, the EU and Tayyip Erdogan. The group, however, which was made up of some 100 people, did not accomplish its target. The Turkish police had implemented tight security measures in the areas surrounding the Orthodox Patriarchate and the demonstration ended without any incidents being recorded. After the demonstration, the members the Church of Cyprus met with Patriarch Bartholomew in the Patriarchate. In Athens, after meeting with Greek President Karolos Papoulias, Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis, answering to a relevant question, reminded reporters of Turkey’s pledges concerning religious freedoms and voiced his satisfaction over yesterday’s reports by the State Department and the European Commission.

Statement by the Ecumenical Patriarch
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew voiced his sorrow over the fact that the meeting with the Church of Cyprus hierarchs coincided with the incidents that took place in front of the Patriarchate, while he noted, "This will also pass."
"Visits to the Patriarchate by other Churches are always welcomed, since they provide an opportunity to exchange view for the good of the Church. Despite any administrative differences, there is only one Orthodox Church. The problems faced by one, are also problems for the others. And as per the Holy Bible, 'Bear one another’s burdens,'" concluded the Patriarch.
"We are meeting with our Holy brothers in this context and we are delighted for this. Of course, it was an unfortunate event that their visit coincided with the incidents that took place outside the Patriarchate. […] This will also pass," stressed the Patriarch, who added, "When I was a young boy on Imvros, many of the houses had decorated their walls with embroideries, which read: 'This will also pass.'"
"Greece fully supports the Patriarchate, and considers these protests unacceptable and groundless. However, what is of importance is the stance of the political world and Turkey itself in the dialogue procedure for its accession in the European Union," stated Minister of Education Marietta Giannakou.

and of course the photo:


Call me whatever you want,my friends and allies,but as long as Turkey is causing these troubles,the majority of my countrymates will never accept them in the european family.

and finally read this:

Double Hit Against Turkey 09 Nov 2005 12:15:00
By Athina Saloustrou
Sources: NET, ANA
The European Commission and the State Department launched a double hit against Turkey, regarding reforms and religious freedom. The Commission’s annual progress report on Turkey is all but positive, as according to information it speaks of delay in implementing reforms. At the same time, the US State Department, in its report on religious freedom, spoke of deterioration and harshly criticised Erdogan’s Government and the Turkish State in general.

Suggestion for Reforms
The State Department report speaks of a systematic campaign against the Christians, while underlining that the Erdogan Government continues to reject appeals for the reopening of the Theological Seminary of Halki.
It is also stressed that in 2005 there was new public campaign against Christian missionaries, while high-ranking government officials have described the Christian missionary action as a threat.
The European Commission, on the other hand, focused on Turkey's delay in implementing political reforms, mainly regarding the freedom of speech, women's rights, religious freedom, cultural rights and the fight against torture.
As per the annual progress report –which numbers 100 pages– submitted by Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn at noon to the EU's Council of Ministers, over the past year Turkey is delaying the process of democratisation and reforms and it will take important efforts towards freedom of speech, women's rights, religious freedom, cultural rights and the fight against torture.
Lastly, the report described the Turkish Economy as a functional market economy, underling the need to continue with reforms.

Issues of Greek Interest
The fact that for the first time a referral on the need of revoking the casus belli from Turkey against Greece, in the case that Athens exercises its right for expansion of its territorial waters, is incorporated in a community document, is of special importance for Greece.
Moreover, the document stated that Turkey should continue its efforts for solving any pending territorial differences, according to the principles for the peaceful solving of differences, and as per the Charter of the United Nations "including – if necessary – the jurisdiction of the International Court."
The securing of the rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is included in the short-term duties of Turkey, while emphasis is given to the protection of religious institutions and the re-operation of the Theological School of Halki.

Papoulias’ Statements
With statements made during a formal dinner in honour of the Armenian President, the President of the Republic, Karolos Papoulias, stated that Turkey’s accession course depends on the country itself, and continued:
"We are awaiting for Turkey to demonstrate the necessary political willingness to proceed to the fulfilment of the total of its duties to the EU, as per the principles and the values of the European family, and in particular, as per the rules and criteria contained in the document of the Negotiating Context adopted. Turkey has taken up, among others, a clear commitment to good neighbouring relations, and for the peaceful solution of differences, as foreseen by the United Nations Charter. Its duty to secure the respect of religious and minorities’ rights has been noted repeatedly, as well as the freedom of speech for all citizens."

I am done for today.Seems that even EU has thinking a lot about the mistake did in Luxembourg.I hope you will read the above really carefully before you say how similar we are with Turkish.

[Phaseolus]

I vote in favour of the adhesion of Turkey.

Here are my reasons :

1. the EU has not to bother about religions : if th EU says no to Turkey because of the religion, then I see no reason to incorporate Bosnia-Herzegovina or Albania or Kosovo... Furthermore, does it mean that the muslim community present in most of the EU is not welcome ? Are they second-class citizens ? What is the religion of the EU Catholics, Orthodoxs, Protestants, Jewish ?

2. Turks are definitely part of Europe, they have present in Europe for centuries. (several centuries in the Balkans)

3. Suleiman Kemal Attatürk changed Turkey profoundly in the '20 : women got voting rights is 1923 (France : 1948, Belgium 1945, Some parts of Switzerland : 1980) ; the Türkisch Language adopted latin characters, traditional clothing was europeanised. Turkey became a laïc republic ; which fits PERFECTLY into the model of the EU, by today.

4. What would be the message of a European "No" to Turkey ? How would you react if you were a turc to a NO ? What are the alternatives ? Muslims fundamentalists can offer a real alternative to a NO.

5. Integrating Turkey to the EU, this is also the best way to protect Kurds minorities, to lower the tensions between Greece and Turkey, and to try to find a way of speaking about Cyprus (by the way, is it really needed to get full reunification, faking to avoid to face a situation which is stuck for 30 years ?)

6. It's a market of 70.000.000 people with a good growth potential for European companies.

7. Europe is diversity

I want to clarify that I am a "white" European, and I have been born in Saint-Josse-Ten-Noode, which is by essence the Turkish neighboorhood of Brussels (60% of the population are foreigners) ; let's face it : I never had any trouble with Turks whatever ; they run shops, are doctors and good workers...

And definitely, I support the entry of Turkey into the EU.

[Tiverius]

I vote in favour of the adhesion of Turkey.

Here are my reasons :

1. the EU has not to bother about religions : if th EU says no to Turkey because of the religion, then I see no reason to incorporate Bosnia-Herzegovina or Albania or Kosovo... Furthermore, does it mean that the muslim community present in most of the EU is not welcome ? Are they second-class citizens ? What is the religion of the EU Catholics, Orthodoxs, Protestants, Jewish ?

2. Turks are definitely part of Europe, they have present in Europe for centuries. (several centuries in the Balkans)

3. Suleiman Kemal Attatürk changed Turkey profoundly in the '20 : women got voting rights is 1923 (France : 1948, Belgium 1945, Some parts of Switzerland : 1980) ; the Türkisch Language adopted latin characters, traditional clothing was europeanised. Turkey became a laïc republic ; which fits PERFECTLY into the model of the EU, by today.

4. What would be the message of a European "No" to Turkey ? How would you react if you were a turc to a NO ? What are the alternatives ? Muslims fundamentalists can offer a real alternative to a NO.

5. Integrating Turkey to the EU, this is also the best way to protect Kurds minorities, to lower the tensions between Greece and Turkey, and to try to find a way of speaking about Cyprus (by the way, is it really needed to get full reunification, faking to avoid to face a situation which is stuck for 30 years ?)

6. It's a market of 70.000.000 people with a good growth potential for European companies.

7. Europe is diversity

I want to clarify that I am a "white" European, and I have been born in Saint-Josse-Ten-Noode, which is by essence the Turkish neighboorhood of Brussels (60% of the population are foreigners) ; let's face it : I never had any trouble with Turks whatever ; they run shops, are doctors and good workers...

And definitely, I support the entry of Turkey into the EU.

1.Well some people do bother if their religion is under attack!they are part of EU too you know!

2.You are right!They were opressing and slaughtering the Balkans for centuries and that won't happen again!

3.Kemal also caused genocides vs Armenian and Greeks.And under his name,today's generals keep killing Kurds and Cypriots!

4.If I was a Turk I would push my goverment to take the control of the state by the army and stop causing troubles to its neighbours.

5.About Cyprus,if EU and USA did in Cyprus the same thing they did in Iraq and Kuwait or in Yugoslavia,Turks wouldn't be there.Think about it.Justice is blind?Would you say the same if Germany had invaded France 30 years ago and hold a part of your country by force,despite the UN desicions and then wanted to enter EU?Lowering the tensions?Look at the picks above!Did you see a mosque burned in Komotini?Did you see a Greek attacking a mouftis?Did you see anyone from the muslim minority in Thrace chased like they did in 1955 and 1974 in Konstantinoupolis to us?Do you want me to send you a daily report on Athens and Nicosia FIR violations by turkish planes?

6.Or 70.000.000 potentional workers in our smaller countries.Or even worse factories moving there.

7.I thought that all member-states were equal in EU.If Turkey didn't recognize France as a country,would France accept them in EU?

Seems that you had some troubles in your neighbourhood recently though.Those people that considered as slaves in your former colonies are now living in ghettos outside Paris.So don't say anything about second class people again.

[groentje]

Saying Turks don't have culture, is saying that a great musical tradition is no culture. Saying that Turks don't have writers, is saying that Orhan Pamuk isn't a great writer, is saying, in the end, that you are better than the other. And that, my friend, I would describe as racism.
The Ottoman Empire was, like the Roman Empire, built with the knowledge of beaten cultures. The new Turkey, as it emerged in the beginning of last century, was very European, as it flew on the nationalistic waves of that era. Yes, Turkey is not yet a modern European state, as modern European states are less nationalistic as they were. But only 70 years ago, the whole of Europe was hooked on nationalism, and some even untill the '70s, '80s and '90s (Portugal, Spain, Greece, Slovakia, in a way Great Britain...). I believe Turkey can change, just as we could. But for that, they need Europe's support, not a stab in the back.
In Turkey, the army still is omnipresent. But only 10 years ago, Turkey was ruled by them. The situation is improving, I'd say.
I accept, that Turkey has to recognize the current EU-memberstates (yes, they have to recognize Cyprus), as it will have to recognize all legislation, as did the 15 new memberstates had to implement the 'acquis communautaire'. So Turkey has a lot of work to do, but I still think it's possible (in what? 10 years?).

[Dakkus]

Did you see Erdogan attending to the demonstration?
Do you think it could - even in theory - be that a demostration that consists of maybe 0,01% of the population of Turkey, actually does not have the support of most of Turks?
If one (or five or whatever) demonstation shows what everyone in the country thinks, then doesn't your logic also mean that the only thing the French want is to burn the world down?

Can you believe it?!? In the EU there are 60 million people who don't want anything else than to burn the world down! And besides - the French have done genocides everywhere around them! Do you happen to remember what mr. N. Bonaparte did?
Because of these things I demand that: FRANCE MUST BE IMMEDIATELLY EXPELLED FROM THE EU! (mmmkay?)
They are ATTACKING our lovely peaceful system with their bloody fireshows! How can you let such BARBARIANS be in the EU?

[Tiverius]

Seems that you don't read read carefully or you don't read at all what i wrote.Did you read what reforms EU asked from turkey?Did you read about turkish keep being hostile against us?
Erdogan had said worse things in the past as a mayor of Konstantinoupolis.Do you want me to find them?Demos or Pamuk is not the only point.Did you read that?

The fact that for the first time a referral on the need of revoking the casus belli from Turkey against Greece, in the case that Athens exercises its right for expansion of its territorial waters, is incorporated in a community document, is of special importance for Greece.

They are officially threating us with war.Erdogan and parliament and the army.Officially!Got that?If I want to break your head will you invite me to visit you in your house?
I am saying again,that Turkey would enter EU,only if he respects their neighbour's borders and the UN decisions.That's what I thing.
I never said I am better than the other,groentje.But I can tell you thousands names of poets,scientists,writers,directors and whatever you want that born in Greece.And don't forget that the roots of european civilization are in Greece mainly and Rome.And that is not a racism.This is a fact!Do you disagree?
Anyway,I am answering in all the subject you put,but you don't.You just pick up something and answer.See the whole picture.I have asked you several times about several points,but noone answer to them all yet.I understand that Greece is too far from you to see the problem (as I can't understand what is the problem in East Timor,cause East Timor to me is a weekly tiny article in Sunday newspaper).

[alex77r]

Can you believe it?!? In the EU there are 60 million people who don't want anything else than to burn the world down! And besides - the French have done genocides everywhere around them! Do you happen to remember what mr. N. Bonaparte did?
Because of these things I demand that: FRANCE MUST BE IMMEDIATELLY EXPELLED FROM THE EU! (mmmkay?)
They are ATTACKING our lovely peaceful system with their bloody fireshows! How can you let such BARBARIANS be in the EU?

Your "lovely peaceful system" only exists in Finland & a few countries of the European Union. The gouvernements of all EU counties are still in place, whatever they are good or bad. The problems that actually happen in France are very complicated and if you want to talk about it you could make it owns topic. Europe is not yet a federation, and still hasn't got is constitution (by the fault of France I would say, but our "NO" is most against our gouverment than Europe, but I personally think also because the Europe is growing too fast : Europe is not ready to get Romania and Bulgaria in 2007).

[Dakkus]

Can you believe it?!? In the EU there are 60 million people who don't want anything else than to burn the world down! And besides - the French have done genocides everywhere around them! Do you happen to remember what mr. N. Bonaparte did?
Because of these things I demand that: FRANCE MUST BE IMMEDIATELLY EXPELLED FROM THE EU! (mmmkay?)
They are ATTACKING our lovely peaceful system with their bloody fireshows! How can you let such BARBARIANS be in the EU?

Your "lovely peaceful system" only exists in Finland & a few countries of the European Union. The gouvernements of all EU counties are still in place, whatever they are good or bad. The problems that actually happen in France are very complicated and if you want to talk about it you could make it owns topic. Europe is not yet a federation, and still hasn't got is constitution (by the fault of France I would say, but our "NO" is most against our gouverment than Europe, but I personally think also because the Europe is growing too fast : Europe is not ready to get Romania and Bulgaria in 2007).

Just to mention, there was a lot of sarcasm in my post.
I don't really think the way I wrote about France.

[alex77r]

I also fully understood what you said, it was to tell you waht I thought about this problem which is no off-topic

[groentje]

Seems that you don't read read carefully or you don't read at all what i wrote.Did you read what reforms EU asked from turkey?Did you read about turkish keep being hostile against us?
Erdogan had said worse things in the past as a mayor of Konstantinoupolis.Do you want me to find them?Demos or Pamuk is not the only point.Did you read that?

The fact that for the first time a referral on the need of revoking the casus belli from Turkey against Greece, in the case that Athens exercises its right for expansion of its territorial waters, is incorporated in a community document, is of special importance for Greece.

They are officially threating us with war.Erdogan and parliament and the army.Officially!Got that?If I want to break your head will you invite me to visit you in your house?
I am saying again,that Turkey would enter EU,only if he respects their neighbour's borders and the UN decisions.That's what I thing.
I never said I am better than the other,groentje.But I can tell you thousands names of poets,scientists,writers,directors and whatever you want that born in Greece.And don't forget that the roots of european civilization are in Greece mainly and Rome.And that is not a racism.This is a fact!Do you disagree?
Anyway,I am answering in all the subject you put,but you don't.You just pick up something and answer.See the whole picture.I have asked you several times about several points,but noone answer to them all yet.I understand that Greece is too far from you to see the problem (as I can't understand what is the problem in East Timor,cause East Timor to me is a weekly tiny article in Sunday newspaper).

I studied (ancient) Greek and Latin, and I admire Ancient History. But as a fact, without Rome, the Greek culture wouldn't have blossomed as hard as it did, since beginning of our era. And Greece (or more correct: Attica) was a democracy, but written legislation was invented by Hammurabi of Babylonia. And Rome may have come way after the Golden Age under Pericles of Athens, but you have to admire their ability to absorb other cultures, to spread over a large chunk of land of the then known world. And to accept Greek culture almost as their own . And certainly, much of our modern world is based on their principles, not Greek's.
But that's not the point. Turkey isn't close of entering the Union, because of their militarism, their hostility against minorities, their muscular language in general, and against Greece in particular, and a number of other things, their economical position, to name just one. But do you honestly believe, that Turkey outside the Union will help us further? I don't believe so... Only by giving them a real chance, by letting them join the EU when they're ready, and that means, accepting the 'acquis communautaire', the entire European legislation, on human rights, democracy, environment, etc, and the official borders of the EU.
If, however, Turkey refuses to accept these simple rules, they don't want to pay the price of joining. But let's give Turkey the chance to do.

[milanocapitale]

I still ask u, are u sure that the man of the lost in fields turkey wants to join us?