Turkey in Europe?

[Dakkus]

I can not accept,that for so many decades we keep the Turks out of our country (and Europe) with the arms and if they join the EU,they can just settle to my country legaly.

We Finns have had wars against the following people in order to keep them away from the land we think of as "ours":
Samí people (When the Finns came and threw them away)
Sweden (When they took over Finland, most people in the Finnish tribes didn't quite like their habits)
Great Britain (The war of Åland)
Russia/USSR (Several wars while we were under Swedish rule and then wwII)
Germany (The end of wwII)

Only driving the Samí away was a bad thing to do, each other fights I find completely okay to do. However, we don't hate Swedish, British, Russian or German people any more.
Times change and attitudes should change with them.
No people is evil by definition.
We'd be damn stupid, if we said no British people are allowed to live in Finland because they bombed us hundreds of years ago.
We'd be damn stupid, if we said no German people are allowed to live in Finland because they burnt Lapland some decades ago.
The situation is now completely different. The British are not anymore what they used to be a long time ago. And definitely neither are the Germans what they were those few decades ago.

Doing things a way that is now stupid only because you've always done things that way is.. well..pure Stupidity.

So what, if you've had to fight. Be happy you don't have to fight anymore.

About the same thing on personal level:
I fight with someone when I'm 14-year-old, just the same age as the other person.
A few decades later that person no more thinks I should be beaten and neither do I think I should beat him. We have a nice conversation and I invite him to my place to drink a few cups of good tea.
According to your logic this couldn't happen. I say your logic's wrong. Sorry, but that's what I think.

Revenge after revenge cause an infinite chain of revenges. Forgiveness is the thing to do. Of course you mustn't give away everything you've got just for the sake of forgiveness, but sometimes some small things may be given away for the sake of peace and happiness.

Turkey won't be able to join the EU if they don't fix their legal problems you've mentioned. So, when they join the EU, those problems won't matter because if they join us, they must've already solved the problems.
There won't be any more legal problems _when_ Turkey joins the EU.

I don't see the whole point of seeing the sovereignity of a country as a value as for itself. It's a good thing to be allowed to have your own legislation and to make it impossible for other people to make your situation any worse. However, there's no logical reason why a person born into one area on this planet should be disallowed from living in some other area. We're all humans. We're all one. There's no point in discriminating us according to what area of the planet we're from. The only differences are stuff like skin and hair colour or maybe the language spoken. Those are things we should not only tolerate but also accept.
I don't see what's the difference between a person born in the area of Greece and a person born in the area of Turkey living on the same island, as long as they obey the local legislation.

As long as they're not gonna harm you, let them be.
We've all come from elsewhere. If we hadn't, we'd still live in Africa. And you can imagine how that'd work with over 6 billion people..

I say, let the people of the world unite and stop wars. That's possible only if we're able to forgive and to understand.

[Tiverius]

@groentje
Now we agree.What i am saying is that Turkey should not take a date,unless if they solve the problems in the Aegean Sea (we have asked them many times to go to court in Hague about it,cause we have all the treaties,which have been signed from Turkey too,that proves where the border line is),stop threating us with war for using our right for 12 miles,let the Greeks chased from there in the 50s to return and give them back their fortune or refund them (because it's an official minority according to their sign),reopen the Halki Theological School of the Orthodox Patriarchy in Konstantinoupolis (plus an orphan house in Prigiponisia),take away their army from Cyprus and accept the constitution of 1960 as the votings in UN security council says all these years (and of course take away the Anatolians that change the ethnological picture of the island) and generally stop being hostile with their neighbours (they do the same with Syria,Armenia and Iraq).
Of course they should run their economical engine more and respect the minority and women's rights.These i can thing of,for now as criteria.Don't u thing that these are too much to block Turkey from entering EU at the moment?

@Dakkus

..... However, we don't hate Swedish, British, Russian or German people any more.
Times change and attitudes should change with them.
No people is evil by definition.
We'd be damn stupid, if we said no British people are allowed to live in Finland because they bombed us hundreds of years ago.
We'd be damn stupid, if we said no German people are allowed to live in Finland because they burnt Lapland some decades ago.
The situation is now completely different. The British are not anymore what they used to be a long time ago. And definitely neither are the Germans what they were those few decades ago.

We don't hate Germans,Italians and Bulgarians (who all invaded Greece during WW2) too.But this is history (not forgotten,but old).Problems with Turkey is everyday life!Greek prime minister wants to support Turkey,but since he said so,turkish airplanes violate Athens FIR several times EVERY SINGLE DAY.President Papadopoulos of Cyprus asked Turkey (via other leaders) to recognize Cyprus,so Cyprus won't put a veto.Turkey refused....
As Ceasar said:whoever wishes peace,must be prepared for war.
Anyway seems that Austria (due to fear for Turks flooding Europe,already asked Cyprus to put a veto together) and Netherlands (due to recent incident with the director) will block them out of EU.Then all will follow....

[groentje]

Ah, now we're talking. I agree, that Turkey can't join now, because the conditions aren't met. Yet I stay pro Turkey in the EU, some day. It wasn't quite clear, what your stand was on that point.
I agree with most of your conditions, accept for the Anatolians in Cyprus. They should be able to return, but not be obliged. The emigrated Anatolians shouldn't be blamed for the mistakes by the Turkish government.
I don't know about the constitution of 1960, is it the Cypriot, Turkish, Greek?
I would think it's a shame if the Dutch government would veto Turkey to join the EU, because of Theo Van Gogh, it would say, that they think of Turks as all being murderers.

[Tiverius]

The 1960 constitution is given to Cyprus when independence won from United Kingdom (and of cousre signed by Greece,Turkey and U.K.).Main points are:Greece,Turkey and U.K. are responsible for the maintenance of this constitution (that was a good chance for Turkey to invade Cyprus).Greek-Cypriots and Turkish-Cypriots can use Greece's and Turkey's national flags and celebrate their national days.More http://www.cyprus.gov.cy/cyphome/govhom ... nguageNo=1
Something more,most of the anatolians are members of the fanatic nationalist Group "Grey wolves".They were welcomed by Denktas in Cyprus and took part in the murders of Tasos Isaak and Solomos Solomou.
more:http://kypros.org/Documents/AI/report97.html and http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/isaak.htm

So I partially agree with the Dutch!Not all,but most of those in Cyprus are murderers!

[avij]

EU leaders have reached an historic agreement to offer Turkey negotiations starting on October 3, 2005 -- this is certainly going to be "interesting".

For those of you who have just joined the discussion, Euractiv provides some handy background information.

[Tiverius]

This is from basketball game of Efes Pilsen vs Panathinaikos in Turkey.The press in Turkey wrote "Efes Pilsen unite all Turks".It is refering to the conquering of Konstantinoupolis by Turks in 1453.
Last week our minister of foreign affair was in Ankara for talks.At the very same time,turkish f-16 flying over Andros (of course kicked away from our planes) and a turkish coast guard boat chasing greek fishermen from Aegean Sea (our navy kicked them away too).Later in a Greek sunday paper Erdogan gave an interview saying that the problems in Aegean caused by the Greeks,that EU and Orthodox Patriarchy in Konstantinoupolis want the dismantle of Turkey.Some politicians here believed that the politicians in Turkey were good and the turkish army was bad (don't forget:it's a dictatorship).It is proved that they all thing in the same way.
And you want me to accept these people in Europe?

[helicase00]

This is from basketball game of Efes Pilsen vs Panathinaikos in Turkey.The press in Turkey wrote "Efes Pilsen unite all Turks".It is refering to the conquering of Konstantinoupolis by Turks in 1453.
Last week our minister of foreign affair was in Ankara for talks.At the very same time,turkish f-16 flying over Andros (of course kicked away from our planes) and a turkish coast guard boat chasing greek fishermen from Aegean Sea (our navy kicked them away too).Later in a Greek sunday paper Erdogan gave an interview saying that the problems in Aegean caused by the Greeks,that EU and Orthodox Patriarchy in Konstantinoupolis want the dismantle of Turkey.Some politicians here believed that the politicians in Turkey were good and the turkish army was bad (don't forget:it's a dictatorship).It is proved that they all thing in the same way.
And you want me to accept these people in Europe?

and Konstantinoupolis - Istanbul made them European LOL

[groentje]

From what I see in stadions in England, I would think they're still at war with Germany, France, Italy and the rest of the world. Don't take supporters so seriously .

[Tiverius]

From what I see in stadions in England, I would think they're still at war with Germany, France, Italy and the rest of the world. Don't take supporters so seriously .

What about the rest?Violations of Athens FIR and sea borders while our minister was there for talks?what about Erdogan's interview?
By the way,Kurds attacked with eggs Erdogan outside Norwegian parliament.Erdogan said that Kurds does not exist-only Turks of Anatolia does-and that PKK is a terrorist group.NATO should bomb Norway for supporting this terrorists living there....

[groentje]

Turkey is a country with severe problems, and to be honest, I don't see them entering the EU in several years. Their fierce nationalism is only one of the problems, but I heard several Turks (living in Belgium) ánd Kurds say, that the Kurd issue is far from resolved, but at least it's recognised. So, do you have a sound clip where Erdogan is actually saying Kurds don't exist? As far as I know, he minimises the problem, and does not want to give too many rights to Turkey's minorities (e.g. Kurds), but he does not say Turkey has no Kurds or Arabs and others....

[Tiverius]

Turkey is a country with severe problems, and to be honest, I don't see them entering the EU in several years. Their fierce nationalism is only one of the problems, but I heard several Turks (living in Belgium) ánd Kurds say, that the Kurd issue is far from resolved, but at least it's recognised. So, do you have a sound clip where Erdogan is actually saying Kurds don't exist? As far as I know, he minimises the problem, and does not want to give too many rights to Turkey's minorities (e.g. Kurds), but he does not say Turkey has no Kurds or Arabs and others....

No I don't have such a clip at hand.Even if he said that he recognise Kurds he keeps on chasing them even in a foreign country (Iraq).I would love if you could answer to all the subject i put on this forum.
Take a look at this now:

Grey wolves outside the patriarchy in Konstantinoupolis threaten to attack the patriarch at 05.09.04.Today they did the same,while patriarch went to a totally ruined church in Pergamos.And I should remind you that the guy who tried to kill the Pope claimed to be a member of this group.Do you want such people in Europe?

[Dakkus]

You can't make an opinion about a whole country only according to what a relatively small group of people say and does.
By your logic Ireland is nothing but IRA and Sweden is completely neo-nazistic. Your logic also means that in USA is the most important nature-protector of the world (their green party DOES get votes from over 100 people, you know!). Also Falun Gong seems to rule China and all Africans just run around shouting "Ugalabugala".
Why not also say the French shouldn't be in the EU because some people over there like blocking the roads with tractors and painting the roadsigns black. Do you really want the French to invade your country, block your lovely peaceful Greek roads with tractors and - what's worst - paint all your traffic signs black? That /could/ very well happen now that they're a part of the EU. Why are you not already doing your best to kick France out?
And what about Greece? I think they should be forbidden from driving cars in other EU states because some people in Greece don't find it a problem driving after drinking three glasses of wine.

You cannot blame whole people for what a small part of it does.
Oh.. And you know, we Finns only chase reindeers all day long. How on Earth can such an anti-industrial state be a part of the EU?

[micdab]

I think the biggest problem with Turkey is that it's too big and too different, and the EU is simply not ready to efficiently govern with such a wide spectrum of nations.

By the time TR joins the EU (~2015, I guess), it's going to be the Union's largest country !! This will shift the EU's economic and political balance enormously. Already now, we can't agree on very basic common issues: the budget, the consitution, foreign politics... What's going to happen when we let in an additional 80+ million people with values and expectations so different from Europe's? I have been to Turkey. One could agree that Istanbul and Ankara are quite modern and European. But the rest of the country? Especially the east?! What about the problems and instabilities there and in the neighbouring countries? Will this not destabilize the EU itself?

Ideologically, I have nothing agaist admitting any country that fulfills the conditions. But from a practical point of view... I'm sorry, but I don't think it will work. At least not now or anytime in the near future.

Greetings,

[groentje]

You could say the same about Spain, only 15 years ago, or Portugal, or even Italy, which was one of the founding fathers of the EU. The capitals were relatively modern and westernized, but in the countryside, some regions didn't even have electricity. Some regions in the new EU-countries still don't, by the way.
Yes, Turkey is big, and Europe has to reform drastically if it wants to stay governable, but in 10 years time, a lot of things can happen. And I'm confident it will.
About the problems that Turkey has, with a widespread virulent nationalism, militarism, poverty, lack of respect for minorities, they will have to work hard to get in place. That an organisation like the Grey Wolves exist, is not the problem, that the government doesn't respond harder, is. But again, in Spain, a few governments ago, the government supported (extreme right) militias against the ETA, but also against unions, human rights organisations, and the like. Few countries in the EU don't have a black page in their history, the only problem I see with Turkey, is that the current page is still very grey. But again, in 10 years time, a lot can happen...

[Tiverius]

That an organisation like the Grey Wolves exist, is not the problem, that the government doesn't respond harder, is.

Respond?It is well known that Grey Wolves do the military dirty job and official goverment talks about far out nationalists.They killed the two Cypriots with the blessings of Ankara and the fake state of Northern Cyprus.