The new EU

[Olivier]

now I really have to sleep, I don't deny EU was extremely good for our economy, I already said that, but peace and political freedom and stability, that was a 25 April conquest

and yes, Europe is too small, and Europeans are too Eurocentric!

I don't agree with all, but it's 2 am... I have to go to bed!
I come back tomorrow!

Good night!

O.

[matt.berlin]

Firstly, I would like a federal system. I am a big fan of the German model, including their largely symbolic president and chancellor who is not allowed to assume a "presidential" role.

I do think that the "opt-out" culture has to, and will, go. Britain for one does not want a so-called two-speed Europe. I think Britain has moved closer to accepting Schengen by finding a solution to the rabies issue. If that system could be guaranteed, then I think it is only logical that Britain joins Schengen. I eagerly await the decisions of the Convention, and which are finally put through. And I would like to remind you Olivier, it was after all the French Assemblée Nationale which prevented far-reaching political union to take place in the early days. The other 5 countries were prepared to do it, but France threw a spanner in the works. Think what a different Union it would already be if it hadn't been for Paris.

Secondly, in response to the other part of this topic, I think there is more that unites us than divides us. However, it does seem extremely odd that first people are complaining about closer integration of the member states and then moan that we are not similar enough. Make your mind up!

I think one of Europe's greatest strength's is its contacts with the rest of the world. With British, French, Spanish, Portugese, Italian and Dutch connections particularly, there is not a continent untouched by European influence. This leaves us in a brilliant position to increase not our own prosperity, but to leave us in the position that we are able to help others less fortunate.

I would also say, that the perception that a shared language automatically equals a shared culture is false. That is the trap many British people fall into .. they assume the Americans are the same as us, but in fact we have FAR more in common with the French and German. In fact, the British are too similar to the French than is close for comfort!

[Olivier]

And I would like to remind you Olivier, it was after all the French Assemblée Nationale which prevented far-reaching political union to take place in the early days. The other 5 countries were prepared to do it, but France threw a spanner in the works. Think what a different Union it would already be if it hadn't been for Paris.

Yes, I know.. what a cruel political mistake! But France of the '50s was not ready for a political union with Germany at that time. Fortunately, it has changed!

[Olivier]

I'm being very German on this subject (well, everyone mistakes me for German on looks, so I might as well share some German opinions). I'd like a proper federal constitution ... and I don't think prime ministers and presidents should have old-boys clubs where they can get away with whatever they like on Europe and then blame it on "Brussels". Give EU decisions to a wholly EU body, democratically elected and transparent.

Which powers belong to the Länder? Are there fights between the Länder and the federal power?

[Donald]

Which powers belong to the Länder? Are there fights between the Länder and the federal power?

Presently, the dispute is about money. There are 3 levels which collect taxes: communities, states (Länder) and the federation (Bund). Additionally there are also obligations who has to pay for what, and there is a system of compensations within the levels and between the levels. The Länder support the cities and the richer Länder support the poorer. All lack money.
The present discussion is about a reconfiguration of the system, which has become very confusing. It seems to me that there is one level too many.
There is no fuss between the single Länder but it is obvious that we can save money if we had fewer of the Länder. However, the attempt to merge Berlin with Brandenburg failed some years ago. So there is not much optimism that we get the Länder reduced from 16 to 10 or 8.

[Olivier]

Besides, even if EU gets its own constitution, it does not mean that EU would be just one country. I just spent about one hour and a half reading the draft constitution (about 250 pages), and the individual countries are still going to exist even after the new constitution even though some things are going to be more integrated than before. Part I, Article 8: Every national of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to national citizenship; it shall not replace it. Followups about this can be redirected to the Europe forum, as this discussion doesn't really belong here.

Avij, I follow this discussion in the Europe section, as you proposed...

There are some points that I don't understand... What is a constitution? Isn't it a "Supreme Law" to regulate the rules in a country?

I am glad to be a european citizen, as much as I would be upset to lose my french nationality... I know I am the most euro-enthousiast of the forum! Even 5000 Km far from Europe...

[Olivier]

Which powers belong to the Länder? Are there fights between the Länder and the federal power?

Presently, the dispute is about money.

And what is their own powers? For example, in Canada, each province takes care about education. Is it the same?

How do the Länder, the Bund and Europe manage to know who does what?

[avij]

Isn't it a "Supreme Law" to regulate the rules in a country?

Well, yes. Constitution is a law that sets the frame for all other laws in a country, or "a law on laws". It isn't possible to write laws that would break the constitution in some way. I don't know about your legislation, but here in Finland (and I assume in most other countries) changing the constitution has been made harder than other laws. I don't remember how it was for the new EU constitution and I don't bother rereading the lengthy document.

To change the constitution here in Finland, first there needs to be a simple majority of parliament members who agree to put the proposed changes on hold until the next parliament gets elected, which happens every 4 years. Basically this means that the same parliament can't change the constitution, there needs to be two consecutive parliaments that agree on changing the constitution. There needs to be two thirds of support for the constitution change in the second parliament for the new constitution to be accepted. The constitution can also be changed using the fast-pace method, in which 5/6 (83%) of MPs can decide that this voting can't wait until the next parliament. After the law change has been declared urgent by that 83% majority, the law can be passed by getting two thirds of MPs behind the law change.

There really should be a summary of the EU constitution, digging through it to gather all the interesting bits is a tedious task. There are some good and noble parts in it (everyone has the right to live, no death penalty, freedom to live everywhere in EU, no human cloning (yes this is mentioned right in the constitution) etc), some more political things such as EU's increased role in financial and work related matters, and also the laws that govern how the European Parliament, the Council of Europe, the Council of Ministers, the European Commission and the Court of Justice work. I'm myself a little bit worried about the mutual defence clause, I'm not really interested if I personally (as part of Finnish armed forces) have to take part in some fight in some distant place far away. Of course that depends on the point of view, for example it'd be nice if the other EU countries helped us in case Russia wanted to expand their country a bit.

For reference, here's the draft EU constitution's table of contents.

TABLE OF CONTENTS
PREFACE 1
PREAMBLE 3

PART I
TITLE I - DEFINITION AND OBJECTIVES OF THE UNION 5
TITLE II - FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS AND CITIZENSHIP OF THE UNION 8
TITLE III - UNION COMPETENCES 9
TITLE IV - THE UNION'S INSTITUTIONS 15
CHAPTER I - THE INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK 15
CHAPTER II -OTHER INSTITUTIONS AND BODIES 25
TITLE V - EXERCISE OF UNION COMPETENCE 27
CHAPTER I - COMMON PROVISIONS 27
CHAPTER II - SPECIFIC PROVISIONS 31
CHAPTER III - ENHANCED COOPERATION 37
TITLE VI - THE DEMOCRATIC LIFE OF THE UNION 38
TITLE VII - THE UNION'S FINANCES 41
TITLE VIII - THE UNION AND ITS IMMEDIATE ENVIRONMENT 43
TITLE IX - UNION MEMBERSHIP 44

PART II: THE CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF THE UNION
PREAMBLE 47
TITLE I - DIGNITY 48
TITLE II - FREEDOMS 49
TITLE III - EQUALITY 51
TITLE IV - SOLIDARITY 53
TITLE V - CITIZENS' RIGHTS 56
TITLE VI - JUSTICE 58
TITLE VII - GENERAL PROVISIONS GOVERNING THE INTERPRETATION AND APPLLICATION OF THE CHARTER 59

PART III: THE POLICIES AND FUNCTIONING OF THE UNION
TITLE I - CLAUSES OF GENERAL APPLICATION 62
TITLE II - NON-DISCRIMINATION AND CITIZENSHIP 63
TITLE III - INTERNAL POLICIES AND ACTION 65
CHAPTER I - INTERNAL MARKET 65
Section 1 - Establishment of the Internal Market 65
Section 2 - Free movement of persons and services 66
Subsection 1 - Workers 66
Subsection 2 - Freedom of establishment 68
Subsection 3 - Freedom to provide services 70
Section 3 - Free movement of goods 73
Subsection 1 - Customs Union 73
Subsection 2 - Customs cooperation 74
Subsection 3 - Prohibition of quantitative restrictions 74
Section 4 - Capital and payments 76
Section 5 - Rules on competition 78
Subsection 1 - Rules applying to undertakings 78
Subsection 2 - Aids granted by Member States 81
Section 6 - Fiscal provisions 83
Section 7 - Approximation of legislation 84
CHAPTER II - ECONOMIC AND MONETARY POLICY 87
Section 1 - Economic policy 87
Section 2 - Monetary policy 92
Section 3 - Institutional provisions 96
Section 3a - Provisions specific to Member States which are part of the Euro area 98
Section 4 - Transitional provisions 99
CHAPTER III - POLICIES IN OTHER SPECIFIC AREAS 103
Section 1 - Employment 103
Section 2 - Social policy 106
Subsection 1- The European Social Fund 111
Section 3 - Economic, social and territorial cohesion 112
Section 4 - Agriculture and fisheries 114
Section 5 - Environment 118
Section 6 - Consumer protection 121
Section 7 - Transport 122
Section 8 - Trans-European networks 125
Section 9 - Research and Technological Development, and Space 127
Section 10 - Energy 131
CHAPTER IV - AREA OF FREEDOM, SECURITY AND JUSTICE 132
Section 1 - General provisions 132
Section 2 - Policies on border checks, asylum and immigration 134
Section 3 - Judicial cooperation in civil matters 137
Section 4 - Judicial cooperation in criminal matters 138
Section 5 - Police cooperation 141
CHAPTER V - AREAS WHERE THE UNION MAY TAKE COORDINATING, COMPLEMENTARY OR SUPPORTING ACTION 143
Section 1 - Public health 143
Section 2 - Industry 145
Section 3 - Culture 146
Section 4 - Education, vocational training, youth and sport 147
Section 5 - Civil protection 149
Section 6 - Administrative cooperation 150
TITLE IV - ASSOCIATION OF THE OVERSEAS COUNTRIES AND TERRITORIES 151
TITLE V - THE UNION'S EXTERNAL ACTION 154
CHAPTER I - PROVISIONS HAVING GENERAL APPLICATION 154
CHAPTER II - COMMON FOREIGN AND SECURITY POLICY 156
Section 1 - The common security and defence policy 162
Section 2 - Financial provisions 165
CHAPTER III - COMMON COMMERCIAL POLICY 166
CHAPTER IV - COOPERATION WITH THIRD COUNTRIES AND HUMANITARIAN AID 168
Section 1 - Development cooperation 168
Section 2 - Economic, financial and technical cooperation with third countries 170
Section 3 - Humanitarian aid 171
CHAPTER V - RESTRICTIVE MEASURES 172
CHAPTER VI - INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS 173
CHAPTER VII - THE UNION'S RELATIONS WITH INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATIONS AND THIRD COUNTRIES AND UNION DELEGATIONS 176
CHAPTER VIII - IMPLEMENTATION OF THE SOLIDARITY CLAUSE 177
TITLE VI - THE FUNCTIONING OF THE UNION 178
CHAPTER I - PROVISIONS GOVERNING THE INSTITUTIONS 178
Section 1 - The Institutions 178
Subsection 1 - The European Parliament 178
Subsection 2 - The European Council 181
Subsection 3 - The Council of Ministers 182
Subsection 4 - The Commission 183
Subsection 5 - The Court of Justice 185
Subsection 6 - The Court of Auditors 194
Section 2 - The Union's advisory bodies 197
Subsection 1 - The Committee of the Regions 197
Subsection 2 - The Economic and Social Committee 198
Section 3 - The European Investment Bank 200
Section 4 - Provisions common to Union institutions, bodies and agencies 201
CHAPTER II - FINANCIAL PROVISIONS 205
Section 1 - The multiannual financial framework 205
Section 2 - The Union's annual budget 206
Section 3 - Implementation of the budget and discharge 209
Section 4 - Common provisions 211
Section 5 - Combating fraud 213
CHAPTER III - ENHANCED COOPERATION 214
TITLE VII: COMMON PROVISIONS 217
PART IV: GENERAL AND FINAL PROVISIONS 221
PROTOCOL ON THE ROLE OF NATIONAL PARLIAMENTS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION 226
PROTOCOL ON THE APPLICATION OF THE PRINCIPLES OF SUBSIDIARITY AND PROPORTIONALITY 229
PROTOCOL ON THE REPRESENTATION OF CITIZENS IN THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE WEIGHTING OF VOTES IN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL AND THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS 232
PROTOCOL ON THE EURO GROUP 235
PROTOCOL AMENDING THE EURATOM TREATY 236
DECLARATION ATTACHED TO THE PROTOCOL ON THE REPRESENTATION OF CITIZENS IN THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE WEIGHTING OF VOTES IN THE EUROPEAN COUNCIL AND THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS 238
DECLARATION ON THE CREATION OF A EUROPEAN EXTERNAL ACTION SERVICE 239
DECLARATION IN THE FINAL ACT OF SIGNATURE OF THE TREATY ESTABLISHING THE CONSTITUTION 240

LIST OF MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN CONVENTION 241

As you can see, the constitution is rather long and my general feeling is that all the EU member countries looked through their own national constitution and combined them all into one EU constitution. Some of the parts are a bit vague and need clarification .. well, this is a draft after all.

[Aaron]

I am glad to be a european citizen, as much as I would be upset to lose my french nationality... I know I am the most euro-enthousiast of the forum! Even 5000 Km far from Europe...

No, just 4000 km - Iceland is a bit closer to you compared to the mainland.

[Donald]

And what is their own powers? For example, in Canada, each province takes care about education. Is it the same?
How do the Länder, the Bund and Europe manage to know who does what?

I think collecting taxes is quite a power. Concerning education, the Länder have the competence to decide what they teach and which kind of schools they prefer, but there is a federal framework above this as well. There is the convention of the Länder school ministers who decide about the federal frame. It is not very transparent.